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PCs versus consoles
With Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all pushing so-called next-generation consoles, can the PC hope to compete as a gaming machine? Alex Watson plays judge and the Custom PC team are the jury as we pit the PC against its three console rivals in a series of exhaustive tests.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a fortune must be in want of a wife, and also a so-called 'next-generation' gaming console. Expressing an interest in games no longer makes you a social pariah but the PC is often prejudged by polite, mainstream company as an unsuitable gaming option for normal people.
It isn't just from the outside that PC gaming is under pressure: 2007 saw a huge number of pricey new graphics cards released, along with pressure from Microsoft to upgrade to Vista. It isn't surprising, then, that PC enthusiasts have started eyeing up their bank balances and wondering if a console wouldn't be a cheaper partner than a decent gaming rig. The number of games that would have been PC-only in the past, but now routinely appear on the Xbox 360 (referred to herein as the 360) and PlayStation 3 (PS3) has only strengthened the allure of the console for disaffected PC gamers.There's also the fact that one of the PC's strongest backers, Microsoft, also has a console to push. It's no wonder PC gaming feels like the ugly duckling of the family. So we decided that it was time to compare the 360, PS3 and Wii with a modern gaming PC to find out which really is the best gaming machine going.
Rules of engagement
We spent a month playing with all three of the current consoles. Each was connected to a 32in LCD TV, the gorgeous 720p-capable Philips 32PFL9632D, using HDMI for the PS3, component for the 360 and composite for the Wii.
For sound, both the PS3 and 360 were connected via optical S/PDIF to a set of Logitech Z-5450 5.1 speakers. As the Wii lacks an S/PDIF audio output, we connected it to the TV using the supplied phono connectors, and then plugged the TV into the Z-5450s. We felt this reflected a high-end, but not over-the-top, lounge setup.
To make it a fair fight, we needed a comparable gaming PC. The obvious choice of CPU was Intel's 2.4GHz Core 2 Quad Q6600. We've mentioned this chip a lot but it has proved itself worthy of all the praise we've thrown its way. A P35 motherboard is the Q6600's natural companion, and we opted for the Asus P5K Premium WiFi-AP, along with our usual motherboard test kit: a 250GB Samsung SpinPoint P120S S-ATA hard disk and 2GB of Corsair PC2-6400 memory. For graphics, we used a BFG GeForce 512MB 8800 GT OC. We connected the gaming PC to a 22in TFT, an Asus PG221, using DVI and, as with the 360 and PS3, an optical S/PDIF output from the on-board sound to the Z-5450s. A fresh installation of Windows Vista Home Premium completed the build.
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this is an interesting set of posts. Consoles are great to play with your friends, in a room together with some beers/joints/whatever - nothing can beat evenings I've had glued to Mario Kart64 & Goldeneye with a load of my friends :) I view my PC as a workhorse that can play some good titles - Battlefield 2 could never be played as well on a console, too many commands and lack of being able to create your own levels/mods. SimCity4 is miles better (and I can use GMAX to create my own models). But the old (original) Final Fantasy games and other Square titles on the SNES had me glued for hours as well (days actually...well, weeks...OK OK it was a few months dammit) and even though I love GTR-2 there isn't a racing game on the PC that can match Gran Turismo on the PSx. Costs-wise let's take it all into account... --PC: AMD 5000BE: £55, NF590MB: £68, 4Gb OCZ6400: £60, Keyboard & Mouse: £25, 8800GT: £140, Samsung 501LJ: £55, iCute jet case: £30, 24"TFT: £210, X-Fi Platinum: £100, 7.1 speakers: £60, 1 game: £40 - total = £843 --PS3: £290, 26"LCD TV: £300, 5.1 speakers: £100, 1 game: £40 - total = £730 - only £100 difference!
Comment by EdArch at 3:19am 9th April 2008
I have been a PC gamer for a very long time now, and my complaint is that PC gaming is not only becoming a complete headache but is getting very expensive by the day. With a large range of GPU’s being released its very hard for the consumer to decide which one to go for, simply because not everyone can afford the best of the best. Just when everyone was settling for an 8800 series graphics card, Nvidia has released its 9 series. Also with games like Far Cry 2 being released for both PC and console, I dare not to think how it will run maxed-out on my Apple 30”?! Is it worth upgrading to a £200 GPU, or shall I just play it on my Xbox 360 via VGA cable which would cost near to nothing?? However, my main point is regarding exclusive titles released on consoles. Being a PC gamer, the last time I played Metal Gear Solid on PC was almost four years ago and since then the company have moved away from the PC platform. It’s the same with many other games, some of them being huge production titles which the PC will never ever see, and because developers are taking this approach of moving away from the PC (due to console demand)—only a handful of genre are left mainly consisting of RTS titles. This is where the console has the upper hand. So I think console gaming is- in a lot of ways -better and cheaper than PC in the long run. Of course, both have their ups and downs but PC gaming has the heavier negative side. Damn, whoever purchased an Xbox 360 back in 2005 will still enjoy games in 2011 without any sort of upgrade. In that case I would rather opt for the console!
Comment by sys_shock2 at 4:46pm 3rd April 2008
Likewise! This has certainly been an interesting debate. take care!
Comment by Cyberspice at 7:05pm 28th March 2008
Just wanted to say it's been nice to meet you
Comment by WoodSpoon at 5:44pm 28th March 2008
how on earth have I responded with fanboyism? I've argued repeatedly that both the console and the PC have their merits, tand that neither can be considered "superior". Maybe your definition of fanboyism differs to mine, but to me, that aint fanboyism. I'm fed up of this debate now, I've tried being logical, and reasonable, but you always come back with your "I'm right, you're wrong, consoles are better because I say so and anyone who disagrees is insane" attitude. I know you're going to think you've won this debate but frankly I don't care. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded
Comment by Cyberspice at 5:30pm 28th March 2008
I didn't turn anything "around" and you were wrong, and I proved it, it was something you asked me to do, and you congratulated me for it, and I accepted the congratulations! Now you act as if I played some trick on you or something, you all of a sudden have a case of amnesia. Those were "your" words, not mine, go back and read them! The bottom line is that you can't refute "facts", something you tried desperately and unsuccessfuly to do since this debate began. I produce facts, you respond with fanboyism. I produce market data and expert industry analysis from the "PC side" (your own side) backing up my claims and you respond with attacks, contradictions, double standards, opinions, and half-truths. You want to say the PC is "cheaper" than a console..."in the long run". This is out right insanity! You fail to take into account the maintenance and the constant upgrading (something that has turned away many potential and "former" PC gamers) to keep the PC up adds to the initial high costs of owning a PC! How many video cards were released from Nov '07 until now?!! At least 15 with more coming! The whole 3800 series with OCs, the 8800GT with many OCs, a new 8800GTS with OC'd models the 9800 series (with more coming)! Thats been in 4 months alone!! Each tweaked just a wee little bit different than the last! It's confusing, stupid, ridiculous and a racket! People are tired of it. You say PC games are "cheaper" than console games but use Amazon as a reference?!! They sell used games! How about referencing Ebay?!! You purposely and completely ignored the retail market because you "know" that PC games cost the same depending on the game. Crysis debuted at $49.99-$59.99 same as UTIII and Gears of War! Speaking of costs, how much does it "cost" to play WoW and other such games? Exactly!! Do you "really" want to add it up?!! Consoles and console games actually have trade-in value as well! You can actually recieve money back or store credit for used consoles and console games, further adding to their value! This is not done with PC games!! Nobody wants them back, as there is no demand. The PC and console in direct competition? How about "in competition" with the console since the console is cannabalizing the PC's games, gamers, developers, sales and market share! You have to be a fool not to see it. Did you know that World in Conflict is now coming to the 360!!! There will be no stone left unturned when its all said and done, and adding in the intial and subsequent high costs it leaves little reason to own a dedicated "gaming" PC. In the words of the Guru of 3D when reviewing Quad SLI "I'm leaving pricing out of the equation as everybody know that gaming at such an investment doesn't really make sense anymore"-The guru of 3D. Guess what, it never did. Please don't compare a community of gamers on a website trading tips and rumors, to a full blown service such as Xbox Live. It's a joke. Live is an "original", Steam a copy, give credit where credit is due. Staying on "innovation" didn't AMD just drop a "cripple" core processor? The 360 has had a triple core in it for the last 3yrs! No gaming PC has more than 4 cores... but the PS3 does and it had it first! As a matter of fact 3yrs ago the triple core CPU and unified shaders lead the PC! The innovation will continue with the new engines that will debute on the next, next gen consoles! The problem with "PC innovation" is that it doesn't always work! From games to hardware, there are always a massive amount of bugs and fixes the gamer or "user" must endure as the cost of doing business on the PC! This wastes their valuable money and time, especially money! This is not a rampant problem on the console like the PC. You buy it, play it, it works...guranteed!! Listen, I'm not saying that the PC isn't good or doesn't have good games. But the console has "proven" to be the better gamer. It is "superior" to the PC in "gaming" and NOTHING can out-game a console...NOTHING! Yes, you can build a more powerful and expensive "gaming" PC or whatever you want to call it. But the console will "do the river dance" on it in every area that matters. This is not "opinion" it is fact, and until "you" start producing facts your argument is hollow. PC developers and gamers have seen both sides and have made their choice...the console! The reason there is argument on either of these machines is something I said very early in this debate, the PC side sees the console increasingly encroaching on it's territory and it doesn't like it! As a matter of fact it's even scared! The writing is on the wall, "change or be assimilated"...Borg style! Change "is" coming to the PC, what that is or means is yet to be seen. Hopefully the PC can "learn" from the console such as intial and subsequent high costs, security, standardization ect, it can rebound. But if it can't then pick up that game pad your doctor gave you and learn how to use it!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:11pm 28th March 2008
This is actually like hitting my head off a brick wall.... you fail to understand any of my arguments and often turn them round and use them as "proof" that I am wrong. I mentioned my old PC playing supreme commander to highlight the flexibilty of the PC as a gaming platform, showing that, even if you have an older PC, you still have the option to play modern games, something that can't be done on a console. I still think it's unfair to compare PC's sold as media centres and workstations to consoles as they are not designed for gaming and are not sold as such, the fact that they can be upgraded to play games is another example of flexibility. You are wrong about older gaming PC's being considered a problem, the problem as they see it is largley due to so many PC's being sold with integrated graphics cards that are incapable of running games. This is a totally different side to the argument, which I will get to later. I'll concede to your point about the makers of oblivion charging pc gamers for extra content, however, this is a relativley uncommon occurence, and there is still a wealth of user generated mods and maps available for alot of games for free, something that is far less common on consoles. With regard to cost, you are wrong about the cost of PC games compared to console games, just go look at play or amazon. Theres a difference of £10 - £20 on most games, no matter how old. The gap seems to narrow down with older games, but it's still there (half life 2:orange box - £13 cheaper on PC, COD4 - £10 cheaper on PC, Guitar Hero 3 - £20 Cheaper on PC including controller). With regards to PC maintinance, your wrong again, the old PC I mentioned I owned for 5 years. Over all that time, I had to pay money to repair it once. And that was £30 for a new power supply, which I replaced myself. Again, this is an advantage of PC's. If a PC breaks down after 4 years, you can probably fix it yourself. If a console breaks down, you have to send it back. If it breaks down outside the warrenty period, you have to pay for it. As for your accusations of my being a PC fanboy, thats just plain wrong and another example of hypocrisy on your part. I am not the fanboy, you are. The reason? I don't see the console and PC markets as being in competition, you do. I'm not arguing to prove the superiority of one over the other, you are. I don't get worked up and ridicule all opinions that disagree with my own, I don't lie about myself to try and give my arguments more weight, I don't accuse all those who disagree with me of being liars and hypocrites. You do all these things. I am arguing the fact that neither machine is superior, they both have as many positive and negative points as each other. In terms of raw power, modern gaming PC's have the edge, in terms of flexibility, gaming PC's have the edge. Consoles are easier to set up out the box and they're better for social gaming. Consoles cost less at first, but games are more expensive, PC's cost more, but games are cheaper. Consoles you need to pay for 90% of the extra content for games, with PC's 90% of it is free, and theres alot more of it, plus, if your that way inclined, you can make extra content yourself. Personally, I think they're pretty evenly matched, therefore the better machine is down to what suits you best. Of course, an often recurring theme in your argument has been that consoles sell more games. This is definatly true, but why? The answear of course, is the same as it is for anything that sells succesfully. Marketing. Consoles are for games, nothing else. Sure they have media centre functions, but these are pretty poor compared to dedicated players and PC's. Therefore they are sold as gaming machines so people who buy them want them for games. PC's are marketed in a completley different way, the adverts you see for PC's outside of dedicated PC channels are from places like Dell & PC world. Try and buy a PC from these places and they'll puch you a £300 - £400 machine, with integrated graphics that's sold for doing work, playing videos and looking at pictures. These are not gaming machines and should not be compared to consoles, they simply aren't capable of playing games, full stop. PC Gaming is sold as an enthusiast hobby, not as a casual hobby. This is why consoles sell more. The point I agreed with your links on, was how PC gaming COULD be sold. Would it really be such a huge stretch for Dell & PC world to bundle their budget end PC's with a Radeon 3850? They're cheap and would provided a decent gaming experience straight away. Even doing something so simple would provide a huge boost to the PC gaming market. On this point, yes I wholeheartedly agree. It is pure laziness on the part of these manufacturers that keep PC gaming from competing with consoles in terms of sales. The way I see it at the moment, the PC and console markets are not in direct competition, rather they complement each other. Console gaming has brought gaming into the mainstream, something that could not have been achieved by the pc market. This means more games, bigger games and better games for both platforms. The PC market pushes high performance hardware, which means better graphics, more interactivity, better game engines. The hardware that gets developed to cope with the demands of PC gamers is what goes into the next generation of consoles, and so the cycle repeats. The PC also pushes alot of gaming innovations AND market innovations. MMORPG's orginated on the PC, Survival horror originated on the PC, FPS originated on the PC, Downloadable content and games originated on the PC (harp on about xbox live all you like, the fact is, online gaming communities have been around on the PC since the mid 90's at least! downloadable content has only been available on the latest generation of consoles, downloading full major games straight to your machine isn't even available on consoles yet). At the end of the day, both markets bring something important to gaming, which is our shared hobby. Why on earth should we spend so much time arguing which is better instead of debating where both markets could learn from each other and what could be done to improve both? As I've said before, I'm not arguing which machine is superior, I'm arguing against warriors "consoles are better, consoles kick the pc's a$$" attitude. It's a shame warrior, because you have made some good points with the links you've posted, your attitude has kept this from being a reasonable debate.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 11:10am 25th March 2008
Thank you for the compliment. it was well deserved. You kept asking me to prove you wrong...and I did! But now you say I took "several" quotes from you and used them "out of context"?!! How? They were "your" quotes! "You" asked "me" to (and these are your EXACT words) "Prove that most PC's can't run modern games. Prove that most Pc's are as low spec as you've been claiming".-cyberspice1. Since this is recognized as one of the many problems areas that are thought to be hindering PC gaming's growth! I intially made the claim, I then posted links from various sources who echoed the claim, "you" then made the same claims, then cited the links "I" posted and said you "agreed" with them!!! So how were you "used out of context"? But, what you seem to "want" to do is hypocritical and contradicts the very statements you said you agreed with!! You do not want to compare those lower end PCs with consoles but want to compare consoles with only the latest mid to high end PCs! You said that my eMachine with the GeForce4 was not fair to compare a machine such as that to modern gaming consoles, as theres a huge technology gap! "But" you said you have/had a PC like that as well (these are your EXACT words) "Actually, Supreme Commander played fine on my old PC. That was an Athlon 2600 with a Radeon9700 graphics card... sure I had to turn everything down, but at least I had the option. that's a 5/6 year old computer, so I think "most" PC's would play supreme commander just fine". So why can't these machines be included in the pool with everything else? My eMachine PC can't play Crysis but it can play WoW and other popular "modern" MMOs, RTSs and Sim games. So these PCs are included, especially since they can still game and they're considered part of the overall problem! You can't have it only one way! The next point that you asked me to do was to prove you wrong on downloading extra maps for "free" on the PC...I did! Not everything is always "free" and you were proven wrong...again! You're not being taken out of context, you're being proven wrong!!! The problem with you and WoodSpoon are that you want to say things to support what you're saying at the moment, but forget about what you said before and end up totally contradicting yourselves! You can't say that a 5yr old PC can play Supreme Commander just fine and (these are your EXACT words) "so I think "most" PC's would play supreme commander just fine". Then turn around and say that most PCs can't play modern games so they shouldn't be compared!! Another point you seem to have wrong is the actual price of console games! You seem to think that they are all vastly more expensive than PC games! This is not true. "New" PC games and console games are the roughly the same price depending on the game! Some console games are actually cheaper and some are a little more expensive. Once a game is old, used or in a bargin bin you could pay anything for it! You've been proven wrong again! You also seem to ignore the fact that you must constanly update and maintain a PC to keep it running well or even at all, which adds to the cost of even owning it! You're a typical PC fanboy who can't see past a video card. There are many reasons that PC gaming is declining and it seem that the mid/high end video card is one of them. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/03/11/ultra_high-end_graphics_are_a_terrible_mistake/1
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 5:55am 23rd March 2008
You've called me a liar and a hypocrite yet you yourself have been prooved to be one that makes you no better than those you accuse. regarding the previous comments about not every console brand being able to run every game, I've explained exactly what I ment and how I ment it, I made the same point in this thread and in the other one, you just failed to understand it. I did not deny what I said you just misunderstood how I ment it in the first place. You are prooven as much of hypocrite and a liar as you accuse me of being, making any further comments worthless on both sides. I'm sure you'll no doubt try and claim some sort of victory and say I have no arguement left or something similar but the truth is you cannot argue with someone who is as much of a liar and hypocrite as those they accuse. So go ahead take whatever victory you wish to from this as you've made it meaningless by doing things you accuse others of.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 4:39pm 21st March 2008
Well done warrior, you've taken several quotes from me and used them completely out of context. The point I was trying to make when I said some PC's aren't built with gaming in mind is that it's hardly fair to compare a PC built as a media centre or workstation with a games console. They're both different machines designed for different things. It IS fair to compare a PC built for gaming with a games console. These are the machines that will have mid-high end hardware, and these are the machines that provide higher performance than consoles. As I've already said though, these aren't for everyone and can't rival the plug and play simplicity of a console, this is why consoles sell more. It does NOT make any console superior to a gaming PC. Another point is, this eMachine with the GeForce4 you keep going on about, It's hardly fair to compare a machine such as that to modern gaming consoles, as theres a huge technology gap! I'll say it again, prove to me that most GAMING PC's can't run modern games. Oh, and how about you address my point about the price difference of games on a console Vs Games on a PC? You can't, because it would mean admitting that the "other side" has a point. Something a 12 year old fanboy such as yourself is unwilling to do.
Comment by Cyberspice at 5:08pm 21st March 2008
The ONLY version that matters is the 360 version. Thats the ONLY version that ever mattered because it's the ONLY version that exists. You tried to take something I said about it running on all consoles and take it out of context...again. Once I told you to "prove" it, and you realized that you couldn't...(and you can't). You then tried to deny ever saying that and instead said you meant that the only reason it "couldn't" was because it didn't exist! It was a lie!! That was also something that "I" even alluded to before you did ("Is the game even available on the PS2 or Xbox? EXACTLY!!! Is it available on "ALL" PCs? EXACTLY"!!)-Warrior24_7. Your words are right there. You've also admitted to purposely taking something else I said out of context and using it. Which was no mistake. But all you're doing now is switching your statements back and forth trying not to get contradicted and exposed as a liar and a hypocrite, but as you can see thats already happened... and keeps happening. For me to continue to expose you is a waste of time and keeps the debate off topic (the PC vs Console) which is right where you want it because you can't counter, and have have no answers to whats really happening in the PC market as of late. The bottom line is that you've lost this debate and you realize that. It's over, the console side prevailed and the PC side failed to show why it's dominant over the console. It's not. The "myth" has been expoloded and the PC side exploded it! The market is saying that, PC developers are saying that, industry insiders are saying that, now many PC gamers are saying that! The console has game and NOTHING can out game a console. All the hardware envy in the world will not change that!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 1:58pm 21st March 2008
You've taken lots of my comments, most of which have been explained before and listed them for no apparent reason, are you trying to say their wrong? how can what I said be wrong if you "have no idea where your coming from, where your going, or what you mean". I'll explain again. The apparently simple point that I was trying to say was that on previous occasions now and in the past you've generalised Pc's saying something like they have to turn the graphics down to run a game it but it will run fine on consoles, which is wrong, it will be fine on some consoles not all consoles as not all consoles can run all console games. I used Supreme Commander as an example, where you said that "not all Pc's can run Supreme commander but all consoles can" which as I've previously explained is not right, you generalized about the PC by saying not all can play it (which is correct) but did not apply the same generalization to consoles as not all consoles can play it.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:42pm 21st March 2008
""A "mis stated fact" is a lie!" not true, a mis stated fact is only a lie when it's intended deceive if it's not intended to deceive then it's just a mistake"-WoodSpoon.... "I'll admit, yes I took what you said and used it out of context in an attempt to demon straight your apparent belief that the format is dying"-WoodSpoon... "You said "has nothing to do with having a PS3, 360, or Atari 7800. It has to do with the game on that system!" but it does because as you have pointed out not everybody has high end gaming rigs, but not everybody has PS3's & Xbox360's either, So saying All consoles will run, for example, Supreme commander is wrong".-WoodSpoon... "I didnt say they weren't capable of playing it just that you could'nt, like you cant play mario galaxy on a PS2 or motorstorm on an Xbox360."-WoodSpoon... Honestly WoodSpoon, I have no idea where your coming from, where your going, or what you mean. I "know" you don't either. Take a deeep breath and start over. Look at it factually. The ONLY console version that matters is the 360 version. This version is the point of reference when comparing with the PC versions...ALL pc versions. From the best that could possibly be played, to the one the PC will spit back in your hand if you try and insert the disc! Somewhere in between lies the 360 version, in whatever final form the game ships in! It's not expected to be the best, but it's not the worst either. All it is, is a statement game that says if you missed it on PC, here it is! It's also a solid PC game that says alot about the strength of the 360 to be able to handle it! Since I own all platforms I would personally prefer to play this game on the "PC" vice the 360! I encourage you to re-read the preview article and what it says about he 360 version.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 2:50am 21st March 2008
"A "mis stated fact" is a lie!" not true, a mis stated fact is only a lie when it's intended deceive if it's not intended to deceive then it's just a mistake. "But what I actually said was "there is no way they could run (if at all) without turning things down", so if it eventually comes out for them it will be toned down"-WoodSpoon..."I didnt say they weren't capable of playing it just that you could'nt, like you cant play mario galaxy on a PS2 or motorstorm on an Xbox360". what's wrong with that? just because a machine cannot run a game does not mean it's not capable of running it even if it's with stuff turned down, if your refering to the (if at all) bit it was a reference to the fact that the game in question may not be ported across to that system, now who's picking out words to use out of context or try to proove a point? As for being accused of exagerating and out right lying, let he who has not cast the first stone, are 12year olds allowed stones?
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:05am 21st March 2008
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=95042
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 12:10am 21st March 2008
"If you feel the need to pay a bit more for getting MUCH BETTER PERFORMANCE in your games then go ahead. But me, instead of spending the $300 for an 8800GT right now I'll buy COD4 for the PS3 and bank the $250 for another day." Warrior24_7, 13 feb 2008. something I remembered seeing in the last thread.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 11:48pm 20th March 2008
A "mis stated fact" is a lie! You seem to "mis state" facts in every post! You need to be corrected constantly and you contradict yourself repeatedly! It's pathetic. As you've done just now. You should be ashamed. "But what I actually said was "there is no way they could run (if at all) without turning things down", so if it eventually comes out for them it will be toned down"-WoodSpoon..."I didnt say they weren't capable of playing it just that you could'nt, like you cant play mario galaxy on a PS2 or motorstorm on an Xbox360"-WoodSpoon. Ummm...yes you did. Now you're trying to change the statement around because you're caught...again! As far as you "generalizing", you're actually trying "pick out" words, and take them out of contexted, to switch the argument, or try and prove a point and play up on them. In other instances you exaggerated or out right lied! These are no mistakes, they are calculated attempts by you to try and misrepresent what I said. You have not and will not be successful as you weren't here! You will just continue to expose yourself because I've been consistant in what I've been saying and I have the PC industry backing up my claims...you don't! Also, are you now saying that a so called "gaming" PC will not have to turn down graphics?
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:54pm 20th March 2008
This is child's play. I've completely out debated you in my sleep! This is all you have left! I have you nit picking at words, outright lying, contradicing yourself, resorting to hypocrisy, and to add insult to injury...I have you agreeing with me! You ask me to prove that "most PC's can't run modern games". Why should I have to prove that when you proved it yourself ("It's true to say that not all PC's are created equal, but than, not all pc's are built with gaming in mind, and most are not marketed as such")-cyberspice1. And this ("This is actually one point I did agree with from some of the links warrior posted. Most of the mainstream PC manufacturers don't market PC's correctly and ship them with integrated graphics cards. These won't play most games") -cyberspice1...And oh, do the contradictions abound!!! ("I think "most" PC's would play supreme commander just fine"). ("One is that modern PCs built for gaming will have mid-high end hardware")-cyberspice1, (most PC's that are built with gaming in mind will have reasonably high end hardware inside") -cyberspice1...What...but I thought... didn't you just... oh what the hell?!! "As for your statements about the PC market declining, thats another thing you can't prove"-cyberspice1, "With regards to the "state" of the PC market, yes, retail sales (ie, over the shelf) are declining"-cyberspice1... *sigh*, "hasn't it been possible to download extra maps for various games on the PC since the mid-90's? And correct me if I'm wrong again, but isn't it free to do this on the PC"?-cyberspice1 ...Okay, I'll correct you (http://obliviondownloads.com/StoreCatalog_ProductList.aspx?SubCategoryId=1) and to correct you further ("You yourself have admitted that the sales figures that would "prove" this are incomplete and therefore meaningless)-cyberspice1 actually "I" NEVER said such a thing..."you did" when discussing services & subscriptions and I agreed. ("all these statistics fail to take into account things like MMO subscriptions, download services (ie. Steam and ign's Direct2Drive) and subscription based services (such as the one offered on this very website). As these statistics are incomplete, they cannot be used to prove anything")-cyberspice1... ("Another point was price, a decent gaming machine can be built for £400-£500 which is only £100-£200 more than a console. Fair enough, it's more expensive")-cyberspice1...Actually console go "down" in price and still have the same level of performance, PCs actually go "up" in price due to the upgrades needed and up keep and lose performance over time giving the console a distinct advantage here. (" Those that are marketed as gaming machines are sold for upwards of £1000. This creates the illusion that PC gaming is more expensive than it really is")-cyberspice1...There is no "illusion" it's a "fact", if it costs more than it's more expensive! Look, as entertaining as this is, I could sit here and pick you apart all-day-looong! But that would be boring and quite pathetic since its so easy. I will absolutely refuse to let you off the hook and make any attempt to take this debate off the console vs PC issue. As I said before, you can't prove me wrong, and can't prove yourself right, YOU'VE LOST THIS DEBATE! GET OVER IT!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 7:36pm 20th March 2008
"The game has not been announced for ANY Sony system, the PS3 included so does that mean it can't run on that machine? Hardly" Yes it does actually, as I said before, you cannot play a game that hasn't been released, I didnt say they weren't capable of playing it just that you could'nt, like you cant play mario galaxy on a PS2 or motorstorm on an Xbox360. "You ask if you must turn down graphics in a console game why buy a new console?" I Didnt say anything of the sort!, again what I actually said was "If older consoles could play new console games with out turning stuff off or down what's the point in new consoles?" which is a very different question. You said "You MUST turn down graphics and other effects just so the game will run...straight outta the box" that all depends on what PC the game is running on. Yes it is possible you could buy a brand new mid range Pc with the latest card and still have to turn it down it's unlikely but it is possible, however that's a mid range PC with the latest card in it not a gaming PC, there is quite a difference. As for being a hypocrite, I generalized to demonstraight a point about you generalizing however your hardly flawless in that area either are you? questioning other peoples facts, correcting people and calling them hypocrites when all they have done is just mis stated facts, yet we know you've lied about your age or marital status (what is it really?) and you yourself have needed to be corrected, so the hypocrisy applies to you as well as me.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 6:52pm 20th March 2008
Thats not any proof at all. You simply don't have an answer! What you should really do is stop talking about console games altogether because you're really ignorant in this area! The PS1 and Xbox have been "discontinued" for some time now. That means that they're not making them anymore. The game has not been announced for ANY Sony system, the PS3 included so does that mean it can't run on that machine? Hardly. So you have yet to prove anything and I'm still waiting. Yes, I know that you generalized and thats why you're a proven hypocrite. But your next statement takes the cake and puts into question your whole argument. You ask if you must turn down graphics in a console game why buy a new console? The answer is...you don't! You don't turn down ANYTHING in a console game except the volume! The game comes with its graphics set and optimized for that console no other action is required from you! The PC on the other hand is different. You MUST turn down graphics and other effects just so the game will run...straight outta the box! You could actually buy a brand new mid range system with the latest card and STILL have to turn down graphics from the word go! So why even think about buying a gaming PC! So this is one time that I think you might be onto something.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 4:37pm 20th March 2008
Thats not any proof at all. You simply don't have an answer! What you should really do is stop talking about console games altogether because you're really ignorant in this area! The PS1 and Xbox have been "discontinued" for some time now. That means that they're not making them anymore. The game has not been announced for ANY Sony system, the PS3 included so does that mean it can't run on that machine? Hardly. So you have yet to prove anything and I'm still waiting. Yes, I know that you generalized and thats why you're a proven hypocrite. But your next statement takes the cake and puts into question your whole argument. You ask if you must turn down graphics in a console game why buy a new console? The answer is...you don't! You don't turn down ANYTHING in a console game except the volume! The game comes with its graphics set and optimized for that console no other action is required from you! The PC on the other hand is different. You MUST turn down graphics and other effects just so the game will run...straight outta the box! You could actually buy a brand new mid range system with the latest card and STILL have to turn down graphics from the word go! So why even think about buying a gaming PC! So this is one time that I think you might be onto something.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 4:37pm 20th March 2008
Supreme comander has not yet been released for Xbox, PS2, PS1 and what ever else, therefore it cannot be played on them at the moment. I think that's pretty much proof. But what I actually said was "there is no way they could run (if at all) without turning things down", so if it eventually comes out for them it will be toned down. If older consoles could play new console games with out turning stuff off or down what's the point in new consoles? Yes I did generalize about consoles in an attempt to show that your generalizations about the PC also apply to consoles.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 4:21pm 18th March 2008
Warrior, are you actually suggesting that Supreme Commander for the Xbox360 will run on an Xbox or PS2? I'd love to see you prove that. While we're at it, why don't you provide some proof of the things that you've been claiming. Prove that most PC's can't run modern games. Prove that most Pc's are as low spec as you've been claiming. And why don't you address some of the points I've made in my last post. Simple, you can't do any of these things.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 3:48pm 18th March 2008
I didn't miss anything! "You" said the game wouldn't run on those consoles and I'm telling you to prove it! Again you've argued yourself into a corner and you can't back up what you say! "Prove" that it won't run on the Xbox and PS2. We know that the game is made for all PCs and will or will not run on them all. We know that the game is designed for the 360 and will definitely run on them all. In another weak attempt to pick out something and change the argument, you accused me of generalizing but in doing so made yourself out to be the hypocrite...again! As far as turned down graphics...READ THE PREVIEW ARTICLE AGAIN! It says the graphics on the console version are turned down!! "I" said the game doesn't look as good as a PC with "everything on". The point being that the console can run the game at all even when most PCs can't and it looks better then some PCs who have to turn the effects off just to play it! You do waaay too much nit picking and not enough "reading". I'm waiting on that proof!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 2:37pm 18th March 2008
If a games Pc has to turn graphics down to run a game, for example, Supreme commander, then there is no way ALL consoles are going to able to play it like you said they can. The fact that it's only been released on one console (at the moment)emphasize's it further, because you cant play a game that's not been released and not ALL consoles are Xbox360's, so not ALL consoles can play it. Games such as Motorstorm, Supreme commander & Grand turismo 5 will run fine on Xbox360's & PS3's but there is no way they could run (if at all) without turning things down on PS1's, PS2's & Xboxes to suggest otherwise is insanity, The difference in hardware is a major indicator. You said "has nothing to do with having a PS3, 360, or Atari 7800. It has to do with the game on that system!" but it does because as you have pointed out not everybody has high end gaming rigs, but not everybody has PS3's & Xbox360's either, So saying All consoles will run, for example, Supreme commander is wrong. But if you ment that it dosent matter which console it's played on because one of them can play it with everything up, then the same applys to a PC, because there are some that will have no problem at all, so the issue of turning things down shouldnt have been brought up. Generalizing that All consoles can play a game but most Pc's will have to turn it down is wrong, Some consoles wont be able to play it turned up either.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:26pm 18th March 2008
I think you're missing the point entirley warrior. Supreme Commander can be played on a 5 year old PC, because you have the option to turn the graphics down and play it. It can't be played on a 5 year old console. It just won't run full stop. I was using this as an example to highlight a major advantage of the PC. Flexibility. Surely its better to have the option of playing the game, albeit with reduced graphics, than not having the option at all. Anyway, you've conviniently ignored several important points again. One is that modern PCs built for gaming will have mid-high end hardware. Those with integrated graphics or low end graphics cards simply arn't built for gaming, so it's hardly fair to compare these machines to consoles. Another point was price, a decent gaming machine can be built for £400-£500 which is only £100-£200 more than a console. Fair enough, it's more expensive, but you get a more powerful machine, and more importantly, games will cost £15-£20 less (go look on play.com or amazon if you want proof). So the extra cost would be made back pretty soon. But thats a point you conviniently ignored because it dosn't fit in with your view. As for the COD4 Re-release.... wow, you can get extra maps for it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been possible to download extra maps for various games on the PC since the mid-90's? And correct me if I'm wrong again, but isn't it free to do this on the PC? From that article, it looks like 360 owners have to pay for the priviledge. Another advantage to the PC there. As I've said countless times, modern games consoles can't rival modern gaming PC's in terms of power. They can't rival any PC's in terms of flexibility. PC's can't rival consoles in terms of ease of use. In terms of price, Consoles are cheaper initially, but once you start building up a decent size games collection, the cost evens out due to lower cost on the PC. And not forgetting that there are countless user generated mods & maps that add value to the pc versions. Again, which machine is "superior" is down to each individual, depending on what that person wants from a gaming machine. And lastly, warrior, you are right, I did indeed mis-quote you. It was an honest mistake, what you actually said was "exposes the cellulite, stretch-marks and acne", which isn't any less melodramatic. And you still havn't answeared to the fact that you've lied about yourself.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 7:57am 18th March 2008
You say the point is that now. Good. Prove it! I have my proof about PCs, where's yours about all consoles? Show us how Supreme Commander runs on the Xbox and PS2! Are you generalizing or being a hypocrite or both? It has nothing to do with having a PS3, 360, or Atari 7800. It has to do with the game on that system! So I'm waiting for your proof!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 1:29am 18th March 2008
If it isn't available on all consoles how can it be played on ALL consoles even they were capable? IT CANT, you did say ALL consoles can play it, and the Xbox360 isnt all consoles it's just one of many. The point is that now and in the past you've generalised Pc's saying something like they have to turn the graphics down to run it but it will run fine on consoles, which is wrong, it will be fine on some consoles. because for example PS2's will struggle to run a PS3 title the same way that some PC's have to turn down graphics while others are fine. You've been saying since the last thread "not all PC's are created equal" and their not, neither are consoles. Not everyone has a PS3 Xbox360 just like not everyone has a gaming rig. It's a small point but an important one.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 11:57pm 17th March 2008
Is the game even available on the PS2 or Xbox? EXACTLY!!! Is it available on "ALL" PCs? EXACTLY!! Is the 360 a "console"? EXACTLY!!! You've GOT to be kidding me!! Is this what I've reduced you guys too? If it is I apologize...on second thought, no I don't!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 10:32pm 17th March 2008
I want to congratulate you on proving me right once again, but you didn't have to because I already knew I was. Having the "option" of turning anything off or down is a useless feature on a console since any game made for it is optimized to run on that harware. This is not the case for the PC. The bottom line is that the 360 will run the game better than most PCs out there. Of course cross platforming is good for the developer but bad if you're trying to justify buying a particluar (more expensive) system when the same game is available on it's (cheaper) competitor! This is another area where the PC is getting absolutely owned. Take COD4 for example, a "PC" game, released on the console, and the console version totally out sold the PC version by tens of thousands of copies!!! The game actually beat Halo 3 and is being re-released on the 360 with Infinity Ward pledging long term support for the game!!! Where is the re-release for the PC version...EXACTLY!!! This is a AAA title and there is absolutely NO reason to buy this game on the PC! I already said that Mass Effect 2 was a "timed exclusive". You're starting to take a page out of woodenspoon's book by making things up and basically becoming a hypocrite. I never said "scarred underbelly of PC gaming". It seems that you've become melodramatic just to prove I'm being melodramatic which is the height of hypocrisy! As far as I'm concerned you've lost this debate! You can't prove me wrong and you can't prove yourself right. You've argued yourself into a corner and have nothing left to argue except opinions and speculation which are meaningless! The case you made about the PC market, mainstream PCs ect where already thought to be an issue (among others) and were discussed and noted. This debate is bordering on the entertaining and as far as I'm concerned it was over along time ago and the console has won. The myth of the PC as the "Ultimate gaming machine" has been exploded! The console beats it everywhere that it matters and the market is proving it! Here is a little COD4 re-release for ya! http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=184908 A sign of things to come? http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=184886
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 6:05pm 17th March 2008
I hate to do this after my earlyer statement about not constantly correcting each other but I feel something needs to be said. Warrior you said that not all Pc's can run Supreme commander but all consoles can. that's just not right, as not all consoles are Xbox360's and an awful lot of people just own PS2's & Xboxes. So the arguement that it wont work on this or that machine works both ways and not all consoles are created equal either.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 7:24pm 17th March 2008
another thing I forgot to add, most PC's that are built with gaming in mind will have reasonably high end hardware inside. in fact, anything with a radeon X1900 / GeForce7900 or higher and a Dual Core processor will probably outdo any console in terms of graphics. thats 18 - 24 month old hardware. I think it's fair to say that most gaming PC's will have at least that kind of hardware inside. It's true to say that not all PC's are created equal, but than, not all pc's are built with gaming in mind, and most are not marketed as such. This is actually one point I did agree with from some of the links warrior posted. Most of the mainstream PC manufacturers don't market PC's correctly and ship them with integrated graphics cards. These won't play most games, so people who buy these come away with the impression that pc's are bad for gaming. Those that are marketed as gaming machines are sold for upwards of £1000. This creates the illusion that PC gaming is more expensive than it really is. There's a huge gap in the PC market for midrange gaming machines costing £300 - £500. If someone was willing to tap into that market, I think PC's would come out looking much more favorable as a gaming machine. Anyway, thats all just speculation on my part.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 4:04pm 17th March 2008
Actually, Supreme Commander played fine on my old PC. That was an Athlon 2600 with a Radeon9700 graphics card... sure I had to turn everything down, but at least I had the option. that's a 5/6 year old computer, so I think "most" PC's would play supreme commander just fine. I mean, it's kind of a stupid point to make anyway, as far as I'm concerned, having a game go cross platform is a good thing. It allows developers to sell more, make more money, that they can spend on making better games for both the console and the PC. And by the way, Mass Effect 2 isn't console exclusive. It's coming out for the PC aswell. You've also failed to address my points about you contradicting yourself, and that theres an equal amount of advantages that pc's have over consoles. You've also again failed to explain your outright lies about whether you're 12 or married with kids. And for christ sakes, some of the language you use "right hook to the PC's jaw", "doctor will hand you a gamepad and tell you to come back when you learn how to use it", "the scarred underbelly of pc gaming"..... seriously man, talk about melodramatic.... where do you pull all that crap up from?
Comment by cyberspice1 at 3:45pm 17th March 2008
The fact that Supreme Commander runs on the console at all is a triumph for the console. The fact that it runs better on the console then most PCs seals the deal! Once again you talk as if all PCs are created equal and they're not (That is the problem these developers are complaining about)! As if all PCs can run that game and they can't! Those are indisputable facts!! But all 360s can!!! Another fact!! Of the PCs that can even run the game, most will have to turn down the graphics to do so and suffer the same effects with slowdown ect as the console, and the game will look even worse than it does on the 360! That was mentioned in the preview. But it will look and run the same on every 360 there is! Evidence of something I mentioned earlier and another clean right hook to the PC's jaw! This is the kind of proof that the PC cannot out game a console. The same game, running on both systems, and most PCs can't even run it but all consoles can! This is a hardcore "PC" game too boot! Arguing over the control scheme is a moot point since the game is being designed with the gamepad in mind, and that is just as instinctive to use for a console gamer as a m/kb is for a PC gamer! As far as Gears of War is concerned it came out a year later and to add insult to injury it ran like crap! If you did even a little homework you would know that Gears of War 2 is 360 "exclusive" and so is Mass Effects 2 (ME2 has limited exclusivity). The console is the "lead' platform, not the PC. Microsoft is the publisher (don't they have Games for Windows to worry about too) so you know where their priorities lie, with consoles not PCs! This is a growing trend as the console becomes the lead and steals engines and even PC games from the PC...thats just INSANE!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 2:40pm 17th March 2008
So Supreme Commander comes to the 360... Wow, thats a sure sign the PC market is declining and the 360 is a better machine than the PC.... After all, big console games never come to the PC, the 360 "exclusive" Gears of War never showed up on the PC did it? And when it did, it sure as hell didn't have better graphics AND a whole extra chapter? And what about Mass Effect? Another major "console exclusive" that will never hit the PC. With better graphics and extra content.... Sarcasm aside, you've actually made a pretty good point against the console with that one warrior. When PC games are ported to the console, the graphics have to be scaled down. In the case of supreme commander, the controls won't be as good (using a gamepad to play strategy games? not the most fun). The two examples of console to PC ports I used are actually improved on the PC, in terms of both graphics and content. I've said it plenty of times before, but for every argument, "fact", or opinion in favour of the console, theres one of equal importance in favour of the PC. No amount of incomplete sales data or opinions from other people will change that.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:57am 17th March 2008
I'll admit, yes I took what you said and used it out of context in an attempt to demon straight your apparent belief that the format is dying, I say apparent belief because weather you have said it or not this is the impression you give, not only to my self but to several others that have read this thread. I DIDN'T say that "I weren't going top say anything else on this subject" what I actually said was "That's all I'm going to say this time" which was to show that I was'nt going to engage in a long drawn out respose to your post as I had much more important things to deal with at the time, So it is you who have been corrected there! but if your talking of corrections, how old are you again? 12? or are you married with children? you talk of correction's yet you have blatantly lied your self, so perhaps all this corrections business should stop (on both sides) and we should return to the point in hand which is, "which is a better games machine?"
Comment by WoodSpoon at 1:45pm 15th March 2008
Now I must "correct" you once again! Yes, I used the word "death", and something did "die"! If you were informed you would know a game company died! Not the whole PC gaming industry!! So you stand "corrected' yet again!! Not only can you not comprehend what was said, you are seriously uninformed! The company died mainly due to "piracy". You can thank me for "correcting" you. You said that I said the PC was dead and I NEVER SAID IT! I never posted anything that said that either so your corrected again... You also said you weren't going top say anything else on this subject...and you did, so you've been corrected again. Now you see what I'm talking about.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 12:21pm 15th March 2008
There is no argument that PC gaming is better if only in greater part that it gives you more new various games to try. Often for free. Real value of consoles is for game producers. And that's the main appeal of consoles: it is safe harbor for game developers where they can off-load piles of work to publisher(s). Stable H/W configuration. Stable software configuration. Some free promotions. Most of that is offset by cost of entering console game development. For PC you need only PC and idea for a game. To develop on console, you have to buy/license dedicated development kits, which keep many creative people out of console market. I'm not sure what I will be playing on PC in five years. But I'm pretty sure that Wii2 will get its Hyper Mario Universe, PS4 it MGS10 and Xbox720 its Halo 7. PC? Heck, new original games (even if raw prototypes) are coming out every month - just look around on blogs and channels. That's the difference between PC gaming and console gaming.
Comment by humantraffic at 1:33am 15th March 2008
There is no argument that PC gaming is better if only in greater part that it gives you more new various games to try. Often for free. Real value of consoles is for game producers. And that's the main appeal of consoles: it is safe harbor for game developers where they can off-load piles of work to publisher(s). Stable H/W configuration. Stable software configuration. Some free promotions. Most of that is offset by cost of entering console game development. For PC you need only PC and idea for a game. To develop on console, you have to buy/license dedicated development kits, which keep many creative people out of console market. I'm not sure what I will be playing on PC in five years. But I'm pretty sure that Wii2 will get its Hyper Mario Universe, PS4 it MGS10 and Xbox720 its Halo 7. PC? Heck, new original games (even if raw prototypes) are coming out every month - just look around on blogs and channels. That's the difference between PC gaming and console gaming.
Comment by humantraffic at 1:33am 15th March 2008
"Of course as with any reason given here. the general concensus from PC gamers is NOT to blame the DEATH on piracy!", these are not you words then? because it was your name at the end of the post. Aside from the one in the other tread which I thanked the poster for the correction, could you give me an example of these multiple corrections you talk of? becuase in this thread I've done nothing but ask questions and state my own opinions and have only posted 6 times since I believed you started ignoring me at 12:39 on 13 march and one of those comments was directed at cyberspice! so the need to "keep "correcting" me over and over again on the simplest of issues" is a little unlikely, and it's more likely that you had no answer so you did not answer.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 11:00pm 14th March 2008
You probably searched every post trying to find one with me definitively saying that PC gaming was dead and you couldn't do it...thats because I never said it! So you stand corrected! The problem is not that I'm giving an impression of anything. The problem is that you have trouble "comprehending". You simply don't "understand" what your reading! It's not just with me, others have had to correct you as well so I know that must be the problem. An example of this would be that because I said, "The PC market is declining and it currently can't compete with the console" you accused me of saying PC gaming is dead. This is not only ridiculous, it's actually quite entertaining! It seems that you didn't understand that the word "declining" and "death" are two different words and have two different meanings. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind being attacked, I expect it since I've posted some very truthful but hurtful and embarrassing things that others in the PC industry have said about the PC and the PC market. So attacks are the only thing you have left to use. I certainly don't mind being entertained as I am everytime you post! But I just don't want to have to keep "correcting" you over and over again on the simplest of issues. So I wasn't "ignoring" you, I just didn't want to keep "correcting" you. So thats what it was. Oh before I forget...you stand corrected sir...again!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 2:57pm 14th March 2008
You don't seem to realise warrior, you can't prove us wrong either. So far, all you have given is opinions from various people that echo your own. opinions don't prove anything. The only thing that can be proven, is that console games outsell pc games. However, as we've already stated, this does not make consoles better machines. That is entirley a matter of opinion, depending on what you want the machine for and what kind of games you play. As for your statements about the PC market declining, thats another thing you can't prove. You yourself have admitted that the sales figures that would "prove" this are incomplete and therefore meaningless. In fact, you yourself have agreed that the PC market is changing, not declining. I'll say it again warrior, you are not being attacked because of your opinion, you are being attacked because of your attitude.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 7:57am 14th March 2008
Making statements such as, "The PC market is declining and it currently can't compete with the console", "So the fact that the console is doing the "river dance" all over the PC in the market", " If THAT doesn't tell you the console is eating the PC's lunch nothing will!", "Of course as with any reason given here. the general concensus from PC gamers is NOT to blame the DEATH on piracy!" , Saying these things does tend to give the impression that you believe Pc gaming is dying or dead and indeed you actually say it's dead in that last statement, so it's you who have been corrected sir.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:46am 14th March 2008
Supreme Commander is on it's way to the 360! This is a hardcore PC RTS. I "know" you need a pretty darn good PC to handle the game and the 360 seems to be doing just fine! The game has been in developement since Oct 2006! The game doesn't look as good as a PC with everything on but it looks okay. It even has achievements. This is one of the games that the console was not suppose to be able to run (hell, some PC s can't run it) but here it is. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/846/846324p1.html
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 9:32pm 13th March 2008
You've just been corrected right there! Nobody said PC gaming is dying or dead! It's declining! This is a fact not an "opinion". They'll still make PC games but the focus has shifted to the console first! The console is now getting the MMOs and RTSs that were formerly PC exclusive. There is a new City of Heros MMO being made for the 360 right now! Gears of War 2 is 360 exclusive! Unreal Engine 4 is to be made for consoles first! The PC market is going to change, it has to. The Gaming Alliance will try to do something but unless they come out with a hybrid console/pc thingy, and PC developers keep their games "exclusive" to it, I can't see how they can stop the console's momentum.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 7:38pm 13th March 2008
You can't out-debate me and you can't prove me wrong...you can't and I know you can't! So you resort to the only thing you have left...attacks! IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK!! Why? Because I have the industry on my side...the PC industry! Yep! Your own people! They agree with "me", not you! Things I said in my very first post and on, are things they are saying now! It hurts, it's embarrassing, it's contradicting, it's unpresedented, it's almost daily, and it's the truth! Could you imagine Nintendo attacking it's fanbase? Saying the "gamers" are a problem? Your own side did! These PC fanboys arguing "right now" in defense of all things PC are a problem... he's talking about you!! It wouldn't happen on the console. Could you imagine Nintendo saying it didn't like developing on it's own hardware?!! It wouldn't happen, but these "former" PC stalwarts are tired of the way business is handled on the PC and basically tired of... you! They have tasted success and blood on the console. They like the "clean" development enviroment and the captive audience that will "pay" for their services! There is no going back. They're already looking to the "next" gen after this one! They said the 360 and PS3 are in their infancy! Those are powerful words coming from a developer...a PC developer! The PC is no longer the priority, it's the console. A shift has been made. So when you wake up out of your self-induced, opinionated coma, gaming will be a very different place. The doctor will hand you a "gamepad" for your physical therapy and tell you to come back when you learn how to use it! I'll just keep listening to these guys and following the market to see where they're trying to take gaming.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 5:40pm 13th March 2008
You can't out-debate me and you can't prove me wrong...you can't and I know you can't! So you resort to the only thing you have left...attacks! IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK!! Why? Because I have the industry on my side...the PC industry! Yep! Your own people! They agree with "me", not you! Things I said in my very first post and on, are things they are saying now! It hurts, it's embarrassing, it's contradicting, it's unpresedented, it's almost daily, and it's the truth! Could you imagine Nintendo attacking it's fanbase? Saying the "gamers" are a problem? Your own side did! These PC fanboys arguing "right now" in defense of all things PC are a problem... he's talking about you!! It wouldn't happen on the console. Could you imagine Nintendo saying it didn't like developing on it's own hardware?!! It wouldn't happen, but these "former" PC stalwarts are tired of the way business is handled on the PC and basically tired of... you! They have tasted success and blood on the console. They like the "clean" development enviroment and the captive audience that will "pay" for their services! There is no going back. They're already looking to the "next" gen after this one! They said the 360 and PS3 are in their infancy! Those are powerful words coming from a developer...a PC developer! The PC is no longer the priority, it's the console. A shift has been made. So when you wake up out of your self-induced, opinionated coma, gaming will be a very different place. The doctor will hand you a "gamepad" for your physical therapy and tell you to come back when you learn how to use it! I'll just keep listening to these guys and following the market to see where they're trying to take gaming.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 5:40pm 13th March 2008
That's about what I'd expect from a 12 year old, even if they are married with children!
Comment by WoodSpoon at 6:07pm 13th March 2008
I'd imagine you are. He seems to be ignoring any comments from me that he doesn't have an answer to. And any answers he does provide are generally ridicule aimed at opinions which don't agree with his own....
Comment by Cyberspice at 5:44pm 13th March 2008
Still waiting for an answer to my questions, or am I being ignored?
Comment by WoodSpoon at 5:41pm 13th March 2008
a quote from you proving what I just said to be true.... your point being?
Comment by Cyberspice at 5:31pm 13th March 2008
"So, with the inability to prove or dis-prove anything, many PC gamers go to the only place they have left, the place they feel the safest...fanboyism!! Ignoring all ryme, reason, and logic, and by professing undying love and devotion for all things PC...no matter what!! With that comes the usual and predictable attacks on anybody who disagrees with them and exposes the PC's underbelly as Liars, traitors and know-nothings."- Warrior24_7
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 5:19pm 13th March 2008
typical 12 year old fanboy behaviour. Ridcule any opinions differing from your own.... And you still didn't address your contradictory statements about your age, lifestyle and gaming experience.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 2:36pm 13th March 2008
What corrections would these be then? out debated? no, I've just had more important issues to deal with recently so gave in for a while, and you still have not told me or Spacemonkey, why, if the pc games format is dying are major manufacturers are ploughing hundreds of millions into it? and why are companies that specialise in making high end gaming rigs, like Alienware thriving? Just because something sells, it dosnt mean it's the best for it's purpose! Mcdonalds food sells, it dosnt mean it's very good though does it!
Comment by WoodSpoon at 1:45pm 13th March 2008
What corrections would these be then? out debated? no, I've just had more important issues to deal with recently so gave in for a while, and you still have not told me or Spacemonkey, why, if the pc games format is dying are major manufacturers are ploughing hundreds of millions into it? and why are companies that specialise in making high end gaming rigs, like Alienware thriving? Just because something sells, it dosnt mean it's the best for it's purpose! Mcdonalds food sells, it dosnt mean it's very good though does it!
Comment by WoodSpoon at 1:45pm 13th March 2008
Of COURSE you agree with woodenspoon! That man has been totally out-debated and "corrected" more times than a 5th graders math homework, and is not taken seriously. That article you posted was garbage *er* rubbish. The guy is clearly not a gamer. I know you "want" to prove me wrong but you can't, and I "know" you can't. So (as I predicted) you've taken the "see no evil", "hear no evil" approach. You want to base everything off of your "opinion" and steer clear of facts! Because you can't dispute them. Whats happening in the gaming industry right now is "real" so walking around in opinionated la la land is not going to change whats going on. PC developers and publishers have discovered the console market and console money and there is no turning back. A few very vocal ones are tired of the way business is done on the PC and have said so. A shift is being made right now and like it or not, there is nothing you can do about it.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 12:01pm 13th March 2008
"It's just some stubborn desire I have to prove fanboys wrong. Really I should know better." He he, it would appear we have something in common.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:21pm 13th March 2008
As far as I'm concerned, there is no debate about which sells more. I only got drawn into that to show all warriors statistics were meaningless. And succeeded as he agreed with me in his last post. It's just some stubborn desire I have to prove fanboys wrong. Really I should know better. @Warrior... You have actually failed to argue convincingly any of my points now. In fact you agreed with most of the major points I made. Your opinion on which is the better machine is no more important than anybody else's, despite what you may think. You also failed to address my accusations concerning you lying about your age and lifestyle. Do you really have the house, wife, kids, etc... or are you really just a 12 year old? Personally, I suspect the latter...
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:51am 13th March 2008
Interesting, I thought this debate was about which was a better gaming machine and not which sell's more, which it seem's to have degenerated into. just because something sells huge ammounts it dosn't mean it's the best, ask Porsche, they sell very little compared to Ford or Honda but it dosn't stop them being the best or being the one people aspire to get.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 12:39am 13th March 2008
Okay, let's see what we've got. "no I don't think that there's any "conspiracy" or "lies" (agreed), "With regards to the "state" of the PC market, yes, retail sales (ie, over the shelf) are declining (agreed), "these statistics (download services) are incomplete, they cannot be used to prove anything" (agreed), "The PC market is changing, not dying" (agreed). "I'm also willing to bet that, come the next generation of consoles, they will have followed suit and moved to services that allow all the major games to be downloaded and stored on the hard drive" (agreed). "I know you are unable to listen to reason or respect my opinion" (agreed), and you'll soon see why! You started off strong! But then you started contradicting yourself or spewing utter hypocrisy. "All these services have been available on the PC for ages, and the consoles are now playing "catch-up". What? Steam has been available for ages, O'rily!! How about the truth? Steam is a PC knock-off of Xbox live! "The truth is, I don't see any of these supposed "problems" with the PC market manifesting themselves" O'rily? So I guess Infinty Ward and others are lying *er* giving their "opinions" when they complain of rampant piracy of their games? I wonder what Ironlore Entertainment would say...Oh, thats right, they can't say anything! I'm also pretty sick of being accused of fanboyism, as I've already said, I enjoy gaming across several platforms. My biggest problem is your console fanboyism". Hmmm...is that your hypocrisy or your "opinion"? I really don't see how the PC in "inferior" to the console as a gaming machine. That, is an example of an opinion, not a fact". O'rily? So the fact that the console is doing the "river dance" all over the PC in the market and in every meaningful sales statistic is based off "market opinion"? The console is just doing it better than the PC right now, just check the sales receipts... for the same games!! The console versions are vastly out-selling the PC versions. Devleopers and publishers are taking notice and shifting their devlopement to the console first...then PC. BTW, when I say certain things like "insane" they're not meant for just you!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:38am 12th March 2008
I've already seen this, read it, and laughed at it, long before you posted it! You're right, the article has no value. The debate on this forum is better than this!! He cites Steam as "innovative" and says its the itunes of gaming? I guess he's never heard of Xbox Live! He also says console gaming is also tirelessly predictable and lists the FPS as one of the genres!! I actually had to re-read that to make sure that I wasn't seeing things! Yep, the FPS! On the console?!!! Let me say that again THE FPS ON THE CONSOLE IS PREDICTABLE?!!! This guy must not play PC games at all!! He also lists WoW and Spore (among others) as innovative. WoW? I guess he's confusing popularity with "innovation"! Also Spore is "multi-platform" I guess he didn't get the memo. Did you even read this drivel before you posted it? He admits a decline in retail sales of games but claims thats due to gamers pursuing other modes of gaming and purchasing, which many sales figures don't take into account. Yep! Like the five finger discount! Is rampant piracy taken into consideration? Just ask THQ and Infinity Ward. He brings up the Gaming Alliance but leaves out the rest of it's members and seems to predict the death of AMD! Do "you" believe that cyberspice1? This guy's arguments remind me of the AMD/Intel spat. AMD is screaming for all to hear "they copied us", "they copied us" all the while Intel is doing it better and pounding them in the market at the same time! The consumer just looks, shrugs, and buys Intel parts. This Console vs PC debate is no different. I would've been embarrassed to have posted that but you needed something. Here is some "innovation" for ya! The shift has already begun. http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/36436/118/1/1/
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 9:41pm 12th March 2008
heres another person that disagrees with you... of course your just going to do the same thing you did last time I posted a link and deny that this guys opinion has any value, without providing any evidence to back it up... http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/gaming/features/is-pc-gaming-in-crisis-actually-no
Comment by cyberspice1 at 1:17pm 12th March 2008
no I don't think that there's any "conspiracy" or "lies". I think that alot of the stuff you've posted is people's opinions and in some cases, developers frustrations. If I really wanted to though, I could probably post several opinions that say the complete opposite! With regards to the "state" of the PC market, yes, retail sales (ie, over the shelf) are declining. But all these statistics fail to take into account things like MMO subscriptions, download services (ie. Steam and ign's Direct2Drive) and subscription based services (such as the one offered on this very website). As these statistics are incomplete, they cannot be used to prove anything. The PC market is changing, not dying. I'm also willing to bet that, come the next generation of consoles, they will have followed suit and moved to services that allow all the major games to be downloaded and stored on the hard drive. In fact, to some extent, this has started already, although currently only small indie games and demos are available, mainly due to limitations on the hard disk space available on consoles. I guess I could use that as a clear example of the console market following the PC market huh? All these services have been available on the PC for ages, and the consoles are now playing "catch-up". Same goes for some aspects of online gaming. MMO games are far more well developed on the PC than the console, with consoles only recently starting to get these kind of games. Theres another example of the console market following the PC market. I really don't see how the PC in "inferior" to the console as a gaming machine. That, is an example of an opinion, not a fact. I don't believe either is superior or inferior, that is down to personal choice. I'm also pretty sick of being accused of fanboyism, as I've already said, I enjoy gaming across several platforms. My biggest problem is your console fanboyism. Look, I know you are unable to listen to reason or respect my opinion, and you're probably just gonna go on a huge incoherent rant about my "feelings being hurt" or me being "insane" and thinking there's a "conspiracy" against me. The truth is, I don't see any of these supposed "problems" with the PC market manifesting themselves. The way I see it is, there were some great games released on the PC last year, some PC-exclusive, some cross platform. There are some great games lined up for this year, again, some PC exclusive, some cross platform, some big console games coming to PC. To me, that does not suggest a market in decline. Let's be honest, logically, if the PC market was in such a dire state, why would developers bother porting their big console hits to the PC in the first place? More to the point, why would they bother adding in any extras for the PC? surely making that effort for a market that's in such a dire state would be a waste of time and money for them. I don't base my opinions on sales figures. My opinions are based on what I see as important, not those of other people. This goes for all my interests, not just gaming. When you grow up, maybe you'll learn.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:13am 12th March 2008
You seem to be utterly confused. Nobody is being "attacked" for liking anything. I could care less if you prefer PC games over console games, jump rope, or marbles. What you "like" has nothing to do with the debate at hand, the "PC" as a gaming machine vs the "console" as a gaming machine. "Liking" PC gaming has nothing to do with the "state" of PC gaming! Although the debate has had various twists and turns, I've stuck to this point since my very first post! The PC as a gaming machine is "inferior" to the console as a gaming machine. Does that mean that the console does everything better all the time? No. Does that mean there are no good games on the PC? No. But the console is better where it matters and that gives it the edge. That edge is seen in it's superior market position, sales data, and gaming prowess. I am backed up by the fact that PC industry insiders like the PC developers, PC publishers, PC print and online media are all agreeing and admitting it now! They're all saying the same thing. The PC has a problem in every area that stops it from being competetive. From the development, security, price, content, the machine itself, and even the GAMERS are a problem!!! For those reasons and then some, the PC CAN'T compete with the console in the market! This effects their bottom line!!! These are the facts! Undeniable, indisputable and proven. You can offer "nothing" to counter them...nothing! So do you honestly believe that with the weight of all the "facts" that I need you to, or "care" if you believe me? The PC industry itself exposed the PC's behind. By doing so they revealed all the cellulite, stretch marks, acne, and stank for the world to see. They blew away the air of superiority that the PC was masqurading in (no pun intended). Saying these things stepped on toes, hurt feelings, touched nerves, contradicted and embarrassed people. So, with the inability to prove or dis-prove anything, many PC gamers go to the only place they have left, the place they feel the safest...fanboyism!! Ignoring all ryme, reason, and logic, and by professing undying love and devotion for all things PC...no matter what!! With that comes the usual and predictable attacks on anybody who disagrees with them and exposes the PC's underbelly as liars, "traitors" and know-nothings. All this being said while clutching the latest "cracked" copy of a PC game in their greedy little paws! Hmmm...I thought that if you loved something you didn't do anything to hurt it? But of course, that would make sense, and fanboyism makes no sense. Did I step on any toes or touch any nerves? I sure hope not, I wouldn't want anyone here to feel bad and think that I'm accusing them of ever playing stolen games! So it all comes down to "facts" and nothing more. Do you believe what the PC market, PC industry insiders, and people from the PC's own side are now saying about the PC? If so, then you agree with them and of course... me (it's almost scary to be this right)!! OR are you ignoring all the facts and believe that this is all a big lie concocted by the industry insiders who formed the PC gaming alliance and manipulated market data just to smear the PC and purposely lie to cyberspice1? If so, then of course you're... "IN-FREEEAAKKIN-SANE!!!" I hope I've cleared that up. It's not about what you "like" or "prefer" to do. Because lets face it...who cares?!! "Liking" is not going to help the PC one bit! It's about what "is". Right now the console "is" putting the boots to the PC in every area that matters and it will continue to do so until that market changes... and it WILL change! Even if only for the sole purpose of protecting itself from those who ignore all data, ryme, reason, logic and profess to love it!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:24pm 11th March 2008
Warrior, if anybody is attacking peoples choice of gaming machine, it's you. In my opinion, refering to PC gamers as "IN-FREEEAAKKIN-SANE!!!" is not showing any respect for other peoples opinions. The only fact that you have shown is that consoles sell more, something which anyone who takes an interest in gaming will already know. The point I am trying to get accross to you is that even though PC's involve more work and technical know how, there are still many people out there who find PC gaming a more rewarding experience than console gaming. These people are neither misguided, insane, or fanboys. They are just people with an opinion. Fanboys are people who take one thing they prefer and single mindedly stick to it, whilst deriding all those who disagree with them. The reason I am arguing with you is, as I have explained, because of you attacking those who prefer PC gaming. Reading other peoples opinions on why they dislike PC gaming is not "hurtful" in any way, and you making comments like that suggests that it's you who places a much importance on gaming. Another thing I don't quite understand about you...you have claimed in 2 previous posts to be 12 years old, yet in other posts, you claim to have a wife, kids, house and car...I guess people might start respecting your opinions a little more when you learn to tell the truth
Comment by cyberspice1 at 1:37pm 11th March 2008
I have a life and I love it! I have the life, wife, kids, car, house, job and pastimes that I want. I get to enjoy them "all" everyday, whats not to love?!! You need to understand life is not all about PC games! For some people it's a business, "their" business. Stats "do" matter, and what People are playing "will" change things. Right now people prefer playing the console more than the PC for a variety of reasons! People prove "themselves" wrong when they don't know what they're talking about. So they're left with nothing more than hypocrisy and name calling when it's all said and done. So quit looking at life through a child's eyes, own up to what you say, and quit blaming others for it! The PC market is what it is right now. No amount of fanboyism, console hate or gamer hate will change that. Think about that the next time you're about to download the "cracked" copy of that PC game you're playing!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:39pm 10th March 2008
I have a life and I love it! I have the life, wife, kids, car, house, job and pastimes that I want. I get to enjoy them "all" everyday, whats not to love?!! You need to understand life is not all about PC games! For some people it's a business, "their" business. Stats "do" matter, and what People are playing "will" change things. Right now people prefer playing the console more than the PC for a variety of reasons! People prove "themselves" wrong when they don't know what they're talking about. So they're left with nothing more than hypocrisy and name calling when it's all said and done. So quit looking at life through a child's eyes, own up to what you say, and quit blaming others for it! The PC market is what it is right now. No amount of fanboyism, console hate or gamer hate will change that. Think about that the next time you're about to download the "cracked" copy of that PC game you're playing!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:39pm 10th March 2008
Again I have to say WELL SAID CYBERSPICE. "You've done nothing but call names and attack those opinions because they differ from your own! Just simply read your own posts!" I've read back and seen no such thing, in fact wasn't it you Warrior that got the warning from the editor? as for "the Pc is good for anything except games comment", that was a reference to mid range Pc's not gaming rig's and nowhere in the article did it say "he was jumping ship to the console". If the console is a superior platform why does it use PC hardware and software and not it's own? As Spacemonkey said why would huge companys still invest massive ammounts of money in a dying format? for the last 10 - 15 years people have constantly been saying Pc gaming is dying and showing undisputeable proof, Looks like they were wrong. The PC gaming platform can change and evolve which is why it will never die.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 11:11pm 10th March 2008
you really need to get a life. you go out of your way to try and prove people wrong but at the end of the day its all done to what you like best and no stats and etc will change that. do something more postive with your time like playing the console your so found of!
Comment by humantraffic at 10:39pm 10th March 2008
"You're" insane. You're actually the 12 yr old fanboy who can't respect the opinions of others! You've done nothing but call names and attack those opinions because they differ from your own! Just simply read your own posts! I've done nothing but post market data, interviews and the "opinion" of developers and industry insiders to back up my own. As far as who is claiming "facts"? It was you who was saying the PC was leading the market, you were the one saying it was better than the console without one shred of evidence backing you up (you were even "asked" for this evidence and couldn't produce it). That is a fanboy operating off pure emotion because he chose a side and he is sticking to it no matter how silly it sounds. I'm simply posting articles from the "PC" side of the industry and from "PC people" who know better. Who absolutely contradict what you are saying, and what you've said. "I" didn't say these things, they did! These people were interviewed or released statements on their own airing their frustrations with PC gamers, the PC as a gaming platform, and with the PC market itself. These are the people who matter. These are the people who make and sell the games you are stealing and playing! They know about the PC market. They know what it takes to make and sell PC games. They are to be believed. Not some fanboy who thinks he knows everything because he bruoght a new video card, who lounges around playing Crysis in his underwear. No, not him. I agree with them, and have said as much since the beginning of this debate! Yet you attack me?!! You attack me because this is hurtful stuff to read, it's truthful, it makes you look foolish, IT'S COMING FROM YOU OWN SIDE!!! It also confirms the console's superior position in the market and it's superiority as a gaming platform!!! This is something PC "fanboys" hate and refuse to admit because your own people are saying it now. Yep, it's all that. But it's also the truth. And you've proven that "you can't handle the truth"!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 8:33pm 10th March 2008
Nobody's insane warrior. You are just a silly 12 year old console fanboy who cannot respect other peoples opinions. My opinion on the matter is this... I play games primarily on the PC and DS. The reason being that for the most part, I find gaming on the XBox 360 pretty samey and not a particularly rewarding experience. I suspect I will find the same problem with the PS3. The Wii is enjoyable but I haven't played it enough to form a solid opinion. That is my opinion, formed through experience. You can show me sales figures and other peoples opinions all you like, but I will not stop enjoying PC gaming just because consoles sell more, and a few developers find the PC hard work. If you enjoy console gaming more, I respect that. What I don't respect is your immature attitude and the way you present your opinion as indisputable fact.
Comment by Cyberspice at 8:11pm 10th March 2008
The PC is good for anything except games?!!! This coming from a developer?!! WOW! This is becoming an everyday occurance. PC guys bagging on the ole PC. You know what they say "Once you go console you never go back"! PC guys, insiders, developers, you name it, they all have something to say about the PC and it ain't good!!! If you still think that the PC is leading the market and is the best gaming platform after reading what all these guys have been saying you're in-SANE!!! Absolutely-IN-FRICKIN-SAAAANNNEE!!!! http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/03/10/unreal_creator_tim_sweeney_pcs_are_good_for_anything_just_not_games_/
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:35pm 10th March 2008
Those big companies know exactly what their doing, we all know that if there was even the slightest chance that they may not make a profit, they'd pull out so fast your head would spin, so they must see future. They know what their doing it's just that we dont know what their doing.
Comment by SpaceMonkey at 6:29pm 8th March 2008
The analysts don't have anything wrong! They're right and they're all saying the same thing...The PC market is declining and it currently can't compete with the console. This is for a variety of reasons. I just agree with them and echo their statements! All I'm doing is posting statements, interviews, and market data, thats it! It can't be refuted! You must be in absolute denial not to see it! But you can choose to believe what you want to believe. I choose to believe market analysts, market data and industry insiders vice the fanboy information hotline who seems to think that CEOs answer to them instead of their shareholders! Why are all these companies spending millions of dollars on a declining platform? Good question and one they're trying to figure out right now! Does it pay to make PC games only or at all! Will I see a return on my investment with rampant piracy taking place? The first step in fixing a problem is admiting you have one. They've already done step one!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:33pm 8th March 2008
Of course as with any "reason" given here. the general concensus from PC gamers is NOT to blame the death on piracy! But just like with this whole "PC gaming is in decline" issue. The trend seems to be denial. Even with overwhelming evidence staring them in the face. Piracy is a huge problem with the PC and brings into question of wheter it's even worth it to develope on the system for alot of developers. If you pirate games you're contributing to the decline in the PC market... If the shoe fits wear it. http://www.tomsgames.com/us/site/flash_videos/second_take_did_piracy_kill_iron_lore_.html
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 10:05pm 7th March 2008
Steam is just a service and they didn't even supply any sales data! Why?!! Were the numbers not where they wanted? They only know, but if you're gonna blow your own horn you would think these would be the numbers they would flaunt. but, as with everything PC, he who is the most expensive, biggest or best...doesn't win! A lowly independent game beat out the big boys. Further proof that it's not about the hardware! Every screaming stat is saying it, no PC guy is listening! "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE HARDWARE"!!!! http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/03/07/audiosurf_rules_steam_s_february_sales/
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 9:39pm 7th March 2008
The PC games industry is dying, Nvidia, Ati, Intel, AMD, Micro$oft and all their thousands of assocaited market analysts have all got it wrong! after all why would they knowingly pump hundreds of millions of pounds, yearly, into hardware and software developement on a dying format? yes, Nvidia and ATI should stop making new graphics cards because it's a waste of their money as the PC game platform is dying, because Warrior24_7 says so. but if they stopped making cards how would consoles work? hmmmmm....
Comment by SpaceMonkey at 12:23am 8th March 2008
Steam? You gotta be kidding! An Live knock off is going to save PC gaming? It's gonna take a helluva lot more than that. I found interesting the comments from the peanut gallery below that didn't seem to think that Steam was all that great! Shocking!!! Here is a little more "insider" perspective. http://www.tomsgames.com/us/site/flash_videos/second_take_the_pc_gaming_slump.html (use the permalink) Here is that guy's "actual" post. After the interview by IGN he couldn't be reached for comment. http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 4:52pm 7th March 2008
Heres a completly different side of the argument to all the links warrior keeps throwing up.... http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/857/857455p1.html.... and by the way, your last link was completley irrelevant. The guy says in that article that he loves pc gaming.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 12:25pm 7th March 2008
and another thing i mean its not as if crysis is coming to the ps3 or xbox 360 anytime soon! any even if it did the graphics wouldnt be near as good as what you would get with a high perfromance pc!
Comment by dvl300 at 9:07am 7th March 2008
are you kidding consoles will never obsolete a pc i mean my pc has an nvidia 8800 gt and intel pentium core2duo and just for kicks 2gb of ram and a brand new msi neo motherboard not to mention my 500gb! sata hardrive along with my pioneer dvd ram/rw sata drive oh yeh and nice lookin antec case sony kiss your arse! goodbye!
Comment by dvl300 at 9:02am 7th March 2008
are you kidding consoles will never obsolete a pc i mean my pc has an nvidia 8800 gt and intel pentium core2duo and just for kicks 2gb of ram and a brand new msi neo motherboard not to mention my 500gb! sata hardrive along with my pioneer dvd ram/rw sata drive oh yeh and nice lookin antec case sony kiss your arse! goodbye!
Comment by dvl300 at 9:02am 7th March 2008
are you kidding consoles will never obsolete a pc i mean my pc has an nvidia 8800 gt and intel pentium core2duo and just for kicks 2gb of ram and a brand new msi neo motherboard not to mention my 500gb! sata hardrive along with my pioneer dvd ram/rw sata drive oh yeh and nice lookin antec case sony kiss your arse! goodbye!
Comment by dvl300 at 9:02am 7th March 2008
This is a few of the reasons the console has the PC in a headlock. I've already brought these up, but here is another PC guy saying some of the same things and damn he is angry!! http://pc.ign.com/articles/856/856392p1.html
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 4:37pm 4th March 2008
that is the greatist load of b.s i ever read and it tuck 5 min to read i wont my 5 min back where do i start ...mmmmmmmmmm.the sony ps3 and the x box are developed on the mighty all powerfull PC my sli 8800gtx duo would nock lumps out of any x box or ps3 ....as for the 7600gt ...get a real card not just one that runs xxcel
Comment by tommyeg at 11:01am 3rd March 2008
that is the greatist load of b.s i ever read and it tuck 5 min to read i wont my 5 min back where do i start ...mmmmmmmmmm.the sony ps3 and the x box are developed on the mighty all powerfull PC my sli 8800gtx duo would nock lumps out of any x box or ps3 ....as for the 7600gt ...get a real card not just one that runs xxcel
Comment by tommyeg at 11:01am 3rd March 2008
I just built a mate a system. C2D 1.6, 2GB RAM 250GB HDD and a 7900GT in a case with all required extras, DVD-RW PSU etc. for just under £250. OK so the monitor is extra, but so is a TV. This system can play most games at max and only the very new top graphical throwers (crysis et al.) really punish it. I mean the system rips through HL2 @ 1280*1024 so he isnt complaining. IMHO CPC are looking too high up on the ladder when they are trying to build these systems. Dropping to a 7900 and I managed to pick up a GFX card with very low power requirements for £60. In this case I can easily see how the PC "could" be cheaper than a console.
Comment by reashlin at 10:22am 3rd March 2008
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/02/01/mark_rein_consoles_killing_the_pc_market/1
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 12:13am 27th February 2008
Depsite the evidence all around from market data, gamer responses, other PC sites, and even a notable PC developer who (to add insult to injury), had his own guys playing COD4...on a console! If THAT doesn't tell you the console is eating the PC's lunch nothing will! So the nod should go to the console based off market data alone. But this is a "PC" site, so you know what they're gonna *er* have to say! http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/02/01/mark_rein_consoles_killing_the_pc_market/1
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:36pm 26th February 2008
Here is a pretty cool interview. http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/02/20/gdc_long_live_pc_gaming/
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 6:54pm 26th February 2008
The console is now heading into new territory. It will now attempt to conquer the MMORPG! This is just a sneek peek but its a start of things to come! If this proves successful (no subscriptions please) There is now no genre the console can't handle. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/854/854285p1.html
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 8:12pm 25th February 2008
I have a decent gaming rigs and a ps3. And i have to say i love them all just differently lol ;) Before me and the lads go out, the ps3 goes pn for some pro evo/call of duty 4 action. Which is awesome. Both games are just top class. However, ive been playing world in conflict, Armoured assault, oblivion, stalker, and a few others that i forget now, and they look brilliant. My 8800GTX will handle those badboys to a decent frame rate so theres no biggy there. I also have another rig with a gainward bliss in it, and i use that rig for playing Eve online mainly. I can have that game on more or less top settings and that card is like 3 years old now. But it was earth shatteringly expensive. And finding a decent AGP board was tricky (any suggestions would be great btw!). The PS3 then is just another machine, and the only thing that really differentiates it in my view is the fact that you use a game pad. And even then you can use a K.board and mouse. So i say they are just alturnatives to the same application....to play games!....i mean do uni work :s The OS on the PS3 i thought was pretty easy to use and if youve used a ps before then you are ps3 proficient already. Personally i think the PS3 case looks modern, stylish and classy. Not cheap and a bit takky like the 360 IMO. you can usea program called tversity and use a pc as a media server on the cheap (and works brilliantly), then you can play all your media from the ps3 on your hi-fi or whatever you have. Visuals are excellent and i dont see that theres much the PC can have on the PS3 in termsof games and stuff...its just different. Call of duty on 1080p HDMI looks just amazing, and i dont think even my GTX would be able to match that. But its still good! The online features of the PS3 arnt great but im sure that sony will develop the infrastructure and it will become worthwhile in the end. Still waiting on a hack for the PS3 firmware but that will probably come in time. And all the extras the CPC team bought for the ps3 were a bit extreme! You dont need all that to enjoy the best of the ps3. I bought the system and a second contoller and a couple of games. Came to just over 300 quid. My other machines cost far more than that, and you need all the components just to get a computer off the starting grid! Excuse the cliche, but at the end of the day, price, performance and intended use all play a big part in deciding what to get. If you want one of the consoles or a pc, really decide which one will serve your intended use. Its simple really!
Comment by poorstudent1 at 2:37pm 24th February 2008
Warrior, as much as I appreciate your spirited and vigorous responses to this discussion, please remember to keep it civil and friendly. - Alex, Editor.
Comment by Sifter3000 at 1:41pm 24th February 2008
But you can go somewhere else and shut up! So you see, you STILL practice what you preach!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 12:21am 24th February 2008
Another thing is in the latest CPC under 'Run PC Games on the PS3' it says "but many PC Gamers see its lowly GeForce 7-series-based RSX graphics chip as a prime target for ridicule. As such, the idea of playing PC Games on a PlayStation 3 seems as logical as brushing your hair with a piece of toast" Now does anybody want to tell me WTF that is all about? It seems to me not that long ago, everyone was fawning over the 7-series and in fact still are, just because there is the 8800 and soon 9000, hell even the 9000 is a pile of rubbish at the moment so how can anyone call the 7-series. I have a 7600GT and I can play Crysis on High settings no problem. It's ridiculous. **EDITED BY MODERATOR - please refrain from using coarse language**
Comment by Scorpion_102 at 8:06pm 23rd February 2008
I can see a few people agree with what I was saying. Although firstly it come across as "This will be interesting!" the next thought was definitely "This is all going to be one-sided". I love the PC for gaming but for me personally it just isn't quite as good as a console. The main thing I admire about PC Gaming is the graphics of modern games, when I was a real PC Gamer I used to sit there with FRAPS on and hit F10 every time something pretty appeared and wasn't to interested in actually playing the game lol. With console, the graphics of next-gen are hugely increased from the dated but amazing PS2 and so it is like playing a PC without the worries of needing new equipment and having to fiddle about with settings and all. As you said Warrior24_7 some areas of the test were ridiculous. The "machine is unpredictable and unhelpful" just made me think "WTF!". The amount of messing about that needs to go into the PC and to customise everything to how you like it is unhelpful, plugging in three wires and inserting a disk is helpful! I was really disappointed with this test. It's as though the CPC Team were finding anything they could to pick at the consoles, almost like "Oh no, there is a dent in the packaging, deduct marks!" Really frustrating. I think PC Gamer's should consider a console and most will actually become quite a console gamer when they realise how easy it is in every single way, the only thing is having slight less high-quality textures and AA + AF.
Comment by Scorpion_102 at 7:30pm 23rd February 2008
Firstly, across the two URLs there are now more comments on this than on James's slating of the Crysis Beta, even with the double posts. Congrats Alex! On the issue, I ended up with a secondhand Xbox to play Halo 1 and 2 to enjoy the co-op at its fullest, that was my first console since the Mega Drive, and then I had the R2 DVD player dongle so it wasn't gathering dust after I stopped gaming on it. So I wanted a 360 for Halo 3 but held off because of the reliability issues. Now that Blu-Ray has become the standard physical film format to follow DVD, I would most likely purchase a PS3 first for the films and the much cheaper online integration than XB Live's annual charge which costs the same as a game. So people with a console might also be doing more than playing games with them, just as you can definitely do more than playing games with a PC. Granted, you could buy a BR Burner for your PC and watch Blu-Ray films without getting a console but that's still over £200 at the moment. That keeps the 40Gb entry-level PS3 as a tempting alternative, even when I want to build a new PC this year. Call me neutral then, I'm not so easily swayed by marketing to think that gaming on a console is somehow cooler.
Comment by KHenry_07 at 4:30pm 23rd February 2008
DUH! you have to read the responses in the first place to know weather you like em or not, you cant un-read something.
Comment by WoodSpoon at 3:58pm 23rd February 2008
If you don't like the post responses don't read 'em, go somewhere, or shut up. Nuff said
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:31pm 23rd February 2008
Leave it alone Warrior, if you dont like the conclusion reached by the magazine then go somewhere else or shut up. That's all I'm going to say this time
Comment by WoodSpoon at 2:01pm 23rd February 2008
So, the PC is better by numbers? Do not get me wrong, no arguements about the mod community, the sheer power, and the variety and quality of games on offer. I have been a PC gamer long enough to realise the platform offers a great range of games. However, the issue is money. I am relatively fortunate that I can afford to spend every so often to upgrade my PC so I can keep it in line with the latest games. For a lot of people, it is a small fortune compared to the cost of a console. If you want a PC game at its best, you need a high performance system. At the least, you are looking at about £1000. Let us not get started on building one for extreme performace. The cost of a PC is only worth it if you can afford to throw the money away on it without worrying. That is not a reality for most people.
Comment by Michael999 at 1:16pm 23rd February 2008
I Completly agree with you Warrior24_7 and Scorpion. I mean as i said yesterday whichever suits you is the best for you no opinions needed. I mean my PC which i just got 2 months ago rocks in my opinion but my opinion means nothing overall becuase of the advatages the Consols have over PC's and vice versa. To be honest i think Custom PC you have made abit of a slip up using this as a atrical, yes it was intresting but i mean everyone gonna be bias in one way or another for there fair share of saying there favorate gaming system. So there is no real winner for a gaming system just whichever suits you best. Case Closed.
Comment by BiotecVirus at 12:56pm 23rd February 2008
You're right, the console still can't get the credit it deserves in the areas it deserves it. While the article takes its time to look at all the systems, the PC slant still remains. Its so obvious in some cases it's actually entertaining! In areas like the "setup". This is a no brainer you would think, with only needing to take the console out of the box, plug the 2-3 cords in the Appropriate places, then turn it on. Insert game and you're playing! The internet options are just that "options"! No building and entire PC or upgrading any hardware, plugging in speakers, posting, loading an entire OS, registration, product keys, loading a game with multiple dics, and more product keys, registration, ect! The PC should be dead last here. But its tied with the PS3! According to the article " Sony's machine is unpredictable and unhelpful". This is after admitting that with the PC "it's time-consuming, and assembling the hardware means that irritations will happen". In-sane!! Another area was "Appearance". While I found this area bizzare and subjective, the PC ended up tied with the Wii for 1st?!! For no other reason then you can change out the case? A mid tower or full tower is at least 3-4 times the size of a console to begin with and heavy as hell, can't sit inconspicuously as a center piece in an entertainment center or on a shelf. It mostly sits underneath a desk or hidden away in a cabinet. To change out the case would mean you have to gut the PC! Again should be dead last! Next "control" while again forgiving the PC for having to adopt a gamepad to play games the keyboard/mouse couldn't handle, but not doing the same for the console. A clear double standard. No ones ever had Carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS) from using a game pad! In areas like "cost". This is where the console absolutely bodyslams the PC. The scores left the PC tied with the 360 and PS3! The article says "Buying an entire PC for the price of a console is difficult, but not impossible". Really? Then do it!! It has yet to be done! I've been daring someone to do it for some time now. The graphics card alone cost more than the 360 itself! The 360 is only $20 more than a Wii @ $279! You can get one off newegg for $239! The slant is so pronounced here its ridiculous. The "games" section was entertaining. Since game choice is entirely subjective, and graphics, systems, or any other factor except what the player prefers is the only real issue. Halo was pitted against Crysis. It was obviously lacking graphically against this game and it's popularity was questioned. But what is funny here is that the most played PC FPS and 4th most played PC games last year (according to neilson ratings) were Halo games! The other PC games ahead of it would be considered graphically inferior even on the Wii! So there is something to be said about a game being "good". It just goes to show that graphics don't make a game, and the gamers regardless of platform don't seem to care, because they know you can't polish a turd! Another area is "noise". The 360 deserved to be last here (I have one, I know) but the PC should've been next. EVERYTHING makes noise on a PC. The PS3 and Wii are almost silent (I have both too). Games is another area where slant was apparent. The PC a social gaming machine? Yeah right!! There are areas where the PC deserved to win like hacking and modding, graphics (if using the appropriate card, if not the console wins) and Interface (obviously). At the opening of the article it stated that the PC was *ahem* under pressure. Other mags have used the word "declining". This admittance shows that the PC as a gaming platform is not dominating the market. If the PC was the ultimate gaming solution then this wouldn't be the case.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 10:58am 23rd February 2008
As soon as I saw this back in the CPC Magazine, I new that the end result would obviously be all about the PC. The name of the magazine is Custom PC, I new the team wouldn't bow down and give to much credit to the consoles, why would they? It's like reading a Microsoft Xbox 360 Magazine and in it say's "PC owns!" it just doesn't work... Not long ago I was a massive PC Gaming fan but since owning a 360 and even sooner the PS3, I think consoles are just easier to pick up the control and play than a PC. All this upgrading constantly is annoying! I do plan to do a good upgrade this year but it is a pain.
Comment by Scorpion_102 at 4:13pm 22nd February 2008
Sorry, Custom PC comments are now closed.
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