UPDATED: Rumour Control: Empire: Total War to be DirectX 10 only?

I believe ATI is helping the move to DX10 with their new 4xxx cards, the benchmarks on tomshardware show that they actually perform better in DX10 then they do in DX9 so there goes the DX9 is faster argument. I myself have been holding off from vista purely because of change, I find the problem is I have been using XP for that long I am just unwilling to let go and move on. The fact is though my new rig is more than capable of running it easily and after having a go I actually don't mind it. Hopefully when windows 7 or whatever they end up calling it comes out it will be dedicated x64 only as lets face it no one is going to be running that on an athlon XP so why make a 32-bit version? Perhaps then we can get some truly dedicated driver and software support.

Comment by tiff_lee at 1:11pm 28th June 2008

If its true that EA can get a 30% performance improvement in DX10 then that will kill off all of the vista porformance flaws, and from then on it would just make sence to make the move (Especially to x64) and for you guys who are not sure about the differences in 32bit and 64bit search youtube for 'difference between 32 and 64 bit' (without quotes) with all this in mind, I think DX10 is just starting to look good now!!

Comment by NikoBellic at 10:53am 28th June 2008

I think its about time we got a game that takes advantage of DX10, Primarrilly because we need to move forward, and all of the current DX10 games are just slow DX9 games with no worthy additions... So I'm hoping that this will show game devs that moving forward isn't too much of a risk anymore!... although I'm sure that it wouldn't happen :( (I personally want something a little better than 3DMark vantage to take advantage of my DX10 GPU features!)

Comment by NikoBellic at 10:36am 28th June 2008

I have and like Vista and I still like XP. I first got over the fact that Microsoft are rich, powerful and manipulative; that they stole all their inventions from aliens, and that they kidnap runner way children, write a cdkey on their forehead, then shoot them once the customer has activated the copy (to avoid piracy apparently), all true. :| All in all I haven't got a problem with XP, Vista, DX10 or DX9 'cos when we moan that Vista is not right, what are we comparing it to? Vista with half the data? Vista that looks just little less like XP? all things that if were true, Vista wouldn't be the product that you are buying. Next time you go to Tesco, ask them why it is that you only get 6 mince pies in this pack when you feel for that price you deserve 8, they will laugh, if it was to much you simply wouldn't buy it. I don't know If Microsoft products are to expensive because there is no clear comparison. For now I'm happy, and unless that day comes when Microsoft take over the world, I'll remain that way. Btw - no I'm not a right wing Politician, I'm not even a politician for that matter ;) Oh and before you say Microsoft fanboy, I apply this logic to everything I purchase.

Comment by TKSnatch at 9:49pm 27th June 2008

I remember in the days that we all moved over to XP from 98 and Me. There were just as many bugs/irritations as there are with moving from XP to Vista. You DID need a much more powerful machine than with 98. NO games made use of DX9 for ages after it was launched. Its just that as a race we hate change. I'm still using XP but I want to use Vista when I upgrade my gfx card, lets face XP is looking a bit long in the tooth now. I also think DX10 will take off now that there are genuine DX10 cards out there (4800 and 200). A shame that NVidia didn't make their card DX10.1 but then I think that was political rather than down to any technical inferiority. I suppose its a shame that DX10 was never released on XP - the only technical reason it couldn't have been was removed due to pressure from the green team. Its also a shame that MS have deemed to price Vista out of most peoples reach - OEM is no good for the enthusiast who keeps upgrading and the retail version of Ultimate at over 300!!! they are having a giraffe!

Comment by pvtbanner at 3:00pm 27th June 2008

Indeed... lol. I too like to have the best of things but I also know my limits as I sometimes have to compromise. As my system is fairly new but not a monster by any means I will stick XP for now, although I am considering a dual boot so I can experiment and look at Vista while not giving up on XP. However, when games are really that much better on Vista because of proper utilization of DX10 then I too will jump at the move to play the latest games. Even if I have to take an overall system hit and turn most of the good stuff off.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 4:55pm 26th June 2008

Yep, we are on exactly the same wavelength. I see what you mean now about consoles being the defining factor, and agree, probably with the same frustration every pc gamer feels. I probably would have Vista, because I'm a bit sad and do like the transparent aero, and I feel its got enough bugs ironed out to be just as usable as XP (not bashing XP, but between two perfectly good choices I always seem to go for the newer and more expensive :). I think you've hit the nail on the head and clarified the point I was trying to make... dx10 is not exactly being hobbled, its just not being used, and mainly because developers aren't producing games based on it. Always nice to come at things from different angles and reach the same conclusions.

Comment by NewParadigm at 4:09pm 26th June 2008

OK, after doing some checking up... the PS3 is based on DX9 while the Xbox 360 has a special version of DX9 which supported aspects of DX8. I wasn't saying that we are looking to consoles for advancement. More a case of the PC gaming market being held back by current console specs rather than last gen PC graphics. As you say yourself, even the current DX10 games are actually DX9 with a few pretty touches added using DX10. I agree with you about making DX10 Vista only. The two main upgrades on a software level is the OS and the graphics API and putting both changes together was bound to cause bigger than normal issues. But then, if DX10 was available on XP, would you have Vista now? Again I ask what is the point and need of upgrading to Vista apart from DX10? You mention crossover support holding development back but as already mentioned, DX10 games are not DX10 games that support DX9. They are DX9 games with DX10 tweaks. If games developers actually designed DX10 games and then showed what you get from DX10 but then hobbled it to support DX9 we would be impressed enough to start moving over. But right now that is just not the case. As for the introduction of DX9 in XP. Yes, there was a mass roll out but that is more down to the fact that you got some benefits within XP without taking a performance hit on your whole system. The same cannot be said about Vista with it's resource hungry architecture. Who wants to turn things down or off in the OS when we don't even want to turn things down in games? Personally, I will seriously look at Vista when I have a system that can run it smoothly and, when actual DX10 games are available. Not current DX9 conversions.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 3:08pm 26th June 2008

I think the ps3 is dx9 based, I'm pretty sure it uses a 7 series GForce and would be surprised if it was dx 8, especially given some of the effects it can support. I would disagree that we are looking to consoles for advancement in graphics, but that's just my interpretation of various articles and bits of news I have read. I also disagree that support for older API's isn't holding back dx10 I thin it may well be (and I stress may, as I dont really have any proffessional technical knowledge in this area). DX10 is optimised for todays use of stream processors, over the older methods, just as dx9 was optimised to use gpu processing over cpu processing (for graphics calcs anyway). Games written that supported dx8 and 9 also showed little benefit from the dx9 support (and in some cases played worse with it), I see no reason why this isn't the case for DX10. The sad thing is, most dx10 games are the equivalent of a console port to a pc, with dx10 'features' added after the main game is complete. Bolting support for anything on top of existing software is never going to be as effective as incorporating it from the start. I think a lot of the negativity around dx 10 is due to the fact that it is tied in to Vista, which, as I've said many times before, is a big big mistake. How many people, in all honesty, wouldn't upgrade to dx 10 if it was available on XP? When dx9 came out (and the same for 9.0c) it was widely taken up by the masses, even though game support for it took a while to catch up?

Comment by NewParadigm at 1:07pm 26th June 2008

Can I just say that games are not being held back because of DX9 support. If you pay attention to the gaming industry there is a steady move to support the console market with some rumouors tending towards some future PC classics will be console exclusive, such as the story of the new Unreal engine. The latest console (being the PS3) may have games on HD discs (BluRay) but their graphics API's are based on even older DX versions... (DX8.1 if I am correct, but I admit I could be wrong) but certainly not DX9 yet. Sadly we are looking towards the next gen of consoles for a jump in graphics and I believe that DX10 won't fully take off until then, and that being the next Xbox which is planned for the end of 2011/12.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 10:40am 26th June 2008

I recently stepped up from a 3200+ Athlon XP, 1Gb RAM and a 256Mb 6600GT... to a E2180 (baby Core2), 2Gb RAM and a 9600GT. Now, I love playing my games and on my 17" monitor, my previous set-up handle games ok with decent FPS in F.E.A.R. albeit with some reduced settings. However, I am loving the way my PC is flying through XP right now. I admit that my system could handle Vista fairly well but it would definately take a fair hit in performance to have all the bells an whistles turned on. Apart from a few DX10 games (and only a couple of good ones) and the 'Clipping Tool' as mentioned in last months Podcast, what is the benefit of Vista to my machine? Please bare in mind that I do not have the money for further upgrading at the mo, so do not use that as an arguement (eg: buying and installing more RAM). Is a resource hungry sidebar (which can be downloaded and installed on XP anyway) all that important? I can understand that you and others wanted to and have moved over to Vista. But why are you so desperate for everyone else to follow you? Is it because you realise that you don't actually have that much of an advantage over XP? Especially as when most DX10 games come out in DX9 versions months before their DX10 counterparts. Our boat may be older, but at least it's engine is roaring away. Unlike yours which is spluttering to get started.... Anyway, it has been confirmed that Empire: Total War will have a DX9 version and therefore I will be playing either the same game as you at launch or months before you.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 10:32am 26th June 2008

I think a lot of the problems encountered in dx10 games are due to the fact that developers are trying to support dx9 as well, whenever you try and cater to multiple solutions they invariably both suffer. I'll be interested to see how pure dx10 titles fare in performance tests

Comment by NewParadigm at 10:19am 26th June 2008

First of all DX10 is definately not mature. Not with the lack of games that actually support it. DX10 may not be the unstable API that it once was but it is definately not in it's prime as of yet. Especially if you need, as you imply, one of the very latest generation of graphics cards to run it properly. You are talking about £350+ for an nVidia card and who knows how capable RV770 will be. You are also forgetting the masses and the huge majority of people who do not have the very latest in hardware. DX10 still has a very long way to go before it is mature and in it's prime. As for Vista, you put two issues together as matter of fact and lump them together. Vista again, may not be as unstable or problematic as it was. But again it is far from becoming popular even with people who are running it already, although I agree it is getting there. My main concern with your comment is the way you sweep in to the field of 64bit architecture. Most people do not even understand what you are on about with regards betwenn 32 and 64bit architecture and that by itself is scary for them. People do not like things they do not understand. People prefer things to be easy for them to use and simple. They do not need to know the hows and whys but tend to just want to know that it does what it is supposed to when they want it to. That is why we have a console market at all. Stepping from 32 to 64bit is not just a matter of a different name. I do think that the move is coming through Vista and full cross over to 64bit may not be realised until Windows7. I believe though that DX9 will still be the main graphics API well in to next year.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 10:15am 26th June 2008

First of all DX10 is definately not mature. Not with the lack of games that actually support it. DX10 may not be the unstable API that it once was but it is definately not in it's prime as of yet. Especially if you need, as you imply, one of the very latest generation of graphics cards to run it properly. You are talking about £350+ for an nVidia card and who knows how capable RV770 will be. You are also forgetting the masses and the huge majority of people who do not have the very latest in hardware. DX10 still has a very long way to go before it is mature and in it's prime. As for Vista, you put two issues together as matter of fact and lump them together. Vista again, may not be as unstable or problematic as it was. But again it is far from becoming popular even with people who are running it already, although I agree it is getting there. My main concern with your comment is the way you sweep in to the field of 64bit architecture. Most people do not even understand what you are on about with regards betwenn 32 and 64bit architecture and that by itself is scary for them. People do not like things they do not understand. People prefer things to be easy for them to use and simple. They do not need to know the hows and whys but tend to just want to know that it does what it is supposed to when they want it to. That is why we have a console market at all. Stepping from 32 to 64bit is not just a matter of a different name. I do think that the move is coming through Vista and full cross over to 64bit may not be realised until Windows7. I believe though that DX9 will still be the main graphics API well in to next year.

Comment by PokerMuppet at 10:15am 26th June 2008

DX10 is mature now and so is the hardware (RV770 and G200). Vista 64 is becoming the OS of choice for high end rigs, you'll want 8GB at some point then maybe, just maybe, you'll drop the Luddite mentality.

Comment by Initialised at 11:43pm 25th June 2008

Mark O'Connell from The Creative Assembly here. Empire: Total War is not the title being referred to in the AMD interview above, and the game will be DX9 compatible. Please visit our official forums for more info: http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/35487

Comment by senseitw at 5:53pm 25th June 2008

TW series games are demanding on specs anyway. The company is banking on a wave of Xmas and New Year upgrades or brand new PCs being bought, which should have the power to handle a Total War Game straight away if they've picked the right components. I stay one version behind on Total War, have yet to play Rome properly and haven't bought Medieval. By the time I see this one I'll be on Vista and it won't matter to me.

Comment by KHenry_07 at 3:44pm 25th June 2008

whats the point moaning about vista, and then saying you'll stick with your vista skin for XP. Surely thats a complete waste of memory and processing power. If you don't want to use Vista, fine, I've got no problems with that, but don't bad mouth vista and then try and emulate it.

Comment by Cerberus_xiii at 3:46pm 25th June 2008

Vista has been out a while now, service pack one does indeed seem to fix the awful networking flaws it had, and there is now plenty of driver support for the current and last gen hardware (not from severel gens back, but what hardcore gamer would be using that... Athlon 3000XP anyone?). It's easily possible to turn off the main culprits for vista being a bit sluggish. There really isn't much reason to doggedly cling to XP. Making new games run on the latest gaming APIs makes a lot of sense, you cant optimise for the latest if it has to run on a previous version, and it makes no financial sense to write the code twice for each api. That said I disagree strongly with MS policy of making DX10 vista only... it's only going to hurt pc game use in the long run.

Comment by NewParadigm at 3:29pm 25th June 2008

hahahahahahaha.... this is a joke right? So the thousands upon thousands they will lose in revenue from XP only gamers will be what? I dont want to cling to XP/DX9 forever but I dont want to be forced into Vista either.

Comment by pveater at 3:20pm 25th June 2008

.........vista only! im one less customer if they do that, missed out on shadowrun due to vista only, when it runs the same speed as xp or faster then i ll upgrade, until then i ll stick with my vista skin pack on xp.

Comment by garrynicol69 at 3:16pm 25th June 2008

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