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Game developer listens to pirates, and changes strategy
After asking pirates why they pirate games, Positech games is overwhelmed with responses and decides to change its strategy on DRM, demos and game quality
We’ve heard plenty of game developers complaining about piracy recently, but it’s not often that you hear about a game developer actually listening to the pirates to find out why they pirate games. That’s what indie game developer Positech (developer of Democracy and Kudos) did, when its founder, Cliff Harris, publicly asked pirates to tell him why they pirated his games on his blog a few days ago. After being inundated with blog comments and emails, Positech has now responded, and has decided to change the way it works on a few key issues.
One of the interesting changes in strategy regards DRM, as Positech had underestimated just how much people hate it. ‘The extent to which DRM is turning away people who have no other complaints is possibly misunderstood,’ explains Harris, adding that: ‘If you wanted to change ONE thing to get more pirates to buy games, scrapping DRM is it.’
Harris says that he’s now ‘read enough otherwise honest people complain about DRM to see that its probably hurting more than it help's [sic].’ Positech has now removed DRM from its games that featured it, and says that it will ‘now use no DRM at all.’
Another common complaint was the short length of game demos, which didn’t give you enough of a feel for the game, which Positech also says it’s going to address. ‘I'll be making my demos much better, and longer, and will retrospectively change this when I get around to it for some of my older games,’ said Harris.
Harris also acknowledged that the pirates who had responded to his blog had ‘revealed a huge group of people who really appreciate genuinely good games,’ and says that he plans to put a lot of effort into making his future games as good as possible. ‘I get the impression,’ says Harris, ‘that if I make Kudos 2 not just lots better than the original, but hugely, overwhelmingly, massively better, well polished, designed and balanced, that a lot of would-be pirates will actually buy it.’
Of course, while it’s great to see an indie game developer listening to people’s complaints and realising how unpopular DRM is, it could be a long time before we see the larger game developers following suit. Has Positech made the right decision to listen to the pirates’ complaints? Would you be more likely to buy a game if it had a longer demo and no DRM? Let us know your thoughts in the comments section below.
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Your original point is diluted because it's a diluted point. Of couse DRM does not stop "all" piracy. But it does stop would be pirates and the wholesale theft of the game. I know of people who've stopped downloading music because they were tired of getting viruses. DRM does the same thing for some people, it deters them. Frankly, I don't want to go thru what you have to go thru just to play a game, because that would dilute my experience.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:33pm 21st August 2008
I don't understand y someone would complain about COD4 single player being too short and not worth the money. Its not that short considering its an amazing experience! Also COD4 is all about the multiplayer, i'm still playing the multiplayer solid and have been since i bought the game last November. Yes i bought this game and Crysis! Haven't bought anything else since tho. I played the demo for COD4 and thot what an experience, i'll have to own that. I bought Crysis because i loved Farcry. So if a game appeals to the heart and feels great to play then i will buy it, if not i'll not buy it but find an alternative way to play it. :)
Comment by kennyhkw at 2:20pm 19th August 2008
Quote: "Not that it's any of your damn business". You're the one who kept bringing it up idiot.
Comment by pveater at 1:31pm 19th August 2008
The problems I had with Mass Effect had feck all to do with emulation software. I'm aware of the conflicts it causes with securom and had disable my virtual drives before installing. And neither was it a work PC, it was my home PC that I use for more than just gaming. This is all kinda diluting my original point anyway, which was that DRM does NOT prevent piracy. I agree, something should be done to reduce piracy, but DRM is not the answear
Comment by cyberspice1 at 10:26am 19th August 2008
Not that it's any of your damn business, but I use it for checking i've made DVD's & VCD's of personal stuff properly before burning & to do FTP transfers. All for my own personal projects & artwork, nothing illegal or sinister
Comment by cyberspice1 at 10:22am 19th August 2008
Just to clarify Cyberspice1 what exactly so you use drive emulation software for? I know what it is I mean you specifically.
Comment by pveater at 9:14am 19th August 2008
You may have perfectly legitimate reasons for using Virtual Drive software and those reasons are your own. But I totally understand EA's position and why they told you it was "a necessary measure". They're protecting themselves and they simply didn't believe you. If you took this to a court of law, you'd lose! Because this is "emulation software", it "clones" hard drives and programs. When you "clone" something you copy it! EA is aware of that and they didn't fail to honor your claim, they just refused to give you the "free" activations that you requested. You feel disciminated against because of this. I feel your anger is misplaced and your thought process defies logic. You said it yourself, "the DRM not liking emulation software is something I'm willing to deal with"-cyberspice1. If thats the case, then why do you feel that EA should continuously feed you free activation after free activation when you received the same amount that everybody else got, and there is no problem with the game itself?!! You seem to be more determined to force the issue here by trying to run two incompatible pieces of software together at the same time, rather than implementing the most obvious and easiest solution...don't! That is like purposely putting diesel fuel in an unleaded engine then blaming the car manufacturer for the car not running right and not fixing it for free! You claim that you "need" this software. I take that to mean you need it for work or business, because you definitely don't need it to play games. If your doing this on a work PC then your wrong anyway. I feel you want to "clone" this software and DRM is causing you all kind of problems hence all the reinstalls. I don't know. Maybe you could hot swap drives or something when you want to game. But I can tell you first hand that I'm a "paying" customer and your "user experience" is not better than mine. Not by a long shot. By your own description of what you must go thru just to play a game sounds like it sucks. Imagine that we're both are headed in the same direction, I fly down the highway as fast as I can. You decide to take side streets, cut corners, get stuck in traffic, and go off road. We both eventually get there, but I took the easy road, you took the hard. My drive was pleasent, yours sucked. It's a situation that "you" created for yourself. You're basically forcing yourself into piracy when you don't have to. Afterall, didn't you say that if you downloaded Mass effect you wouldn't have that problem? So there is yet another solution, "download". But you still must "pay" for the game. It is what it is. DRM is transperant to me. I don't notice it, it doesn't effect my gameplay. But then again I don't have emulation software on my PC either.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 9:31pm 18th August 2008
The DRM not liking emulation software is something I'm willing to deal with. I have perfectly legitimate reasons for using Virtual Drive software, and I dont see why I should be discriminated against because of the software I need, but I can easily enough turn it off when I'm playing games (although this in itself is a hassle I wouldn't have to deal with if I pirated games) The thing that made me swear off EA games was the DRM on Mass Effect. When I ran out of activations due to Uninstalling & Reinstalling the game, Reinstalling Windows and upgrading my graphics card, EA Expected me to pay for further activations. Bear in mind this is a game I had already purchased legally, as I have done with countless other EA games. I have expressed my dissatisfaction to them and been told it is a "necessary measure". instead of paying for further activations, I downloaded a crack that removed the DRM, and played the game with no further problems. This is what I mean by paying customers suffering. Anyone who downloaded Mass Effect rather than buying it would not have had these problems, whereas paying customers (I know I'm not the only person who had similar problems) have to suffer. This is a very sad state of affairs, when the pirates get a better experience. To be honest, I've not actually pirated any games yet, I just know Mass Effect with a bought copy & crack worked perfectly (better than without a crack), so I'll be in a better position to judge when Crysis warhead comes out and I can try a fully downloaded one. I know alot of people disagree with me, and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just trying to make it clear that not everybody who pirates games just wants something for nothing, and that sometimes, these big companies bring it on themselves by treating paying customers like criminals.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 4:45pm 18th August 2008
The problems you're having is because your running virtual software which is "emulation software" for Hard Drives, CDs and DVDs (correct me if I'm wrong...I doubt it though). The DRM is probably programed to spot emulation sofware of ANY type and is picking up on this in your PC. It's refusing to run properly because it's trying not to let itself get copied or it "thinks" it's getting copied. The way "you" made it seem is that the games wouldn't run right because DRM was on the disk, and it alone was solely responsible for all your problems when in fact it was just doing it's job! You already knew that the DRM doesn't like that software and that is the reason some of your games don't work. But you decided to blamed EA for it and swore them off because they wouldn't honor your claim against them when it was your fault all along!! They're not stupid and they don't owe you anything. Simply remove the offending software and your games will run fine, if not you know why.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:57pm 18th August 2008
The problems you're having is because your running virtual software which is "emulation software" for Hard Drives, CDs and DVDs (correct me if I'm wrong...I doubt it though). The DRM is probably programed to spot emulation sofware of ANY type and is picking up on this in your PC. It's refusing to run properly because it's trying not to let itself get copied or it "thinks" it's getting copied. The way "you" made it seem is that the games wouldn't run right because DRM was on the disk, and it alone was solely responsible for all your problems when in fact it was just doing it's job! You already knew that the DRM doesn't like that software and that is the reason some of your games don't work. But you decided to blamed EA for it and swore them off because they wouldn't honor your claim against them when it was your fault all along!! They're not stupid and they don't owe you anything. Simply remove the offending software and your games will run fine, if not you know why.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:57pm 18th August 2008
So you wont buy an EA game but you still want to play it. And illegally downloading it is therefore justified? If you dont buy it then you dont have the right to play it. I hope you get caught I honestly do.
Comment by pveater at 10:41am 18th August 2008
I'm not claiming to be for the paying customer. I'm out for my own interests. Sure, I believe in paying for what you get, but when I don't get the respect I deserve for that, I will pirate. And for the record, the problems I've had are nothing to do with me messing around. Several games have decided that because I use Virtual Drive software, I must be a criminal and refused to install. Then there's mass effect, which I've told you the problems I had already. None of these games were "stolen" yet the solutions I was given were "don't use virtual drive software then" (or even "buy more activations for a game you already paid for". the last one took the biscuit and that's why EA won't be getting my custom anymore.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:52am 18th August 2008
In the past I have bought games that have either caused me a major headache when trying to install them due to DRM, or they simply have not worked at all. Take my saga with Bioshock as an example of the former. When it first came out I went through several levels of hell trying to install the damn thing because of the DRM management. I think I remember an activation server being down at the time or something, as I could not play the game straight away. It all seemed really unfair. I remember thinking had I just pitated it non of this would have been a problem. Sometimes I have bought games that have simply not worked at all and I have had to pirate them to play them. An example of this is when I bought lego star wars. It simple did not want to install on my pc. I live in Japan and taking back a product is not an option, so I basically had just given my hard earned yen away. In the end I pirated it. T'is a bit of a sad state of affairs.
Comment by Ijinyanen at 3:58am 18th August 2008
But that is my point, you say that you're angry at EA but you still play the games! You say that you're for the paying customer, but you're not one! You say that there are problems with DRM and it hurts the user experience, but you will have problems playing a pirated version and are hurting your own experience! I built my PC and run Vista like alot of people and I have not yet had a problem with games. I don't even have any anti-virus software on my system! I think that because I simply load the game and play it and I don't try to do anything else with it is the reason why. If you're doing things the software is not meant to do or the developer didn't want it to do, then surely you'll have problems. If this is the case (and I believe it is) then I don't feel they owe you anything and you shouldn't expect anything. No manufacturer of any product will let you take their product beyond what it was designed or "intended" to do and honor any claim you have against it. You feel that they have poor customer service and they feel you're a poor customer. Basically you're not a customer because you didn't pay, you stole the game. If you pirate then pirate. But trying to come off like it's a noble cause doesn't make sense to me. You're doing it to serve yourself.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 8:07pm 17th August 2008
If a country like the UK is appalled at the contempt people in another country - say Zimbabwe - are treated, the UK will boycott trade with Zimbabwe - meaning they will not buy or use anything Zimbabwean - same in supermarkets - if you don't like the idea of food being flown all the way from Peru - then you boycott food flown in from Peru - you don't buy it! You don't mug someone for their Costa Rican bananas because you don't want to BUY bananas flown in from Costa Rica...but they're oh so tasty. Did you ram-raid PC world and steal all their Soundblaster cards because of the way Creative handled the Vista unlocking issue? I'm sorry but your argument of 'EA treat customers with contempt so I'm going to pirate all their games' is pointless, no matter if you've bought every single EA game in existence. If you think they're being unfair to their customers, write to them telling them they've lost a customer and you'll be encouraging others to follow suit - they'll have lost a sale or three and if you raise your issue reasonably, they may listen and act accordingly
Comment by EdArch at 4:42pm 17th August 2008
Maybe you haven't, but I have, and I'm sure I'm not alone. And no, I won't be buying Spore & Crysis warhead. I'll be pirating. That's because EA treated me with contempt when I paid for their games, and believe me, I've bought ALOT of EA games over the years, therefore, they do not deserve my custom. I guess if I really wanted the moral high ground, I could just not play the games at all, but I don't see why I should lose out because of the way they treat customers.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 2:12pm 17th August 2008
I disagree, I have not "suffered" at all because of DRM. My games work fine. What I don't get is the whole hypocritical approach to this debate. Pirates say they care about the "paying" customer, Yet they themselves don't pay! They talk of "suffering" at the hands of DRM, yet they"ll "suffer" thru a game that has issues because it's a pirated copy! It dosen't make sense. You say your done with buying EA games. So I ask you, EA will be releasing Warhammer Online, Spore and Crysis warhead. Will you be buying or not? If not, why do you care about the "paying" customer?
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 8:30am 17th August 2008
one pirate = one capitalist they both want it for as little as posible most people want a thing if it is pop not because they need it tomb raider is a game i would not buy or have pirated caus its crap but others will have owt if it is for nowt or a cut down price . jj7
Comment by kingjohn721 at 7:29pm 16th August 2008
no titan, I did mean without. So I'm on your side ya friggin moron! I've also stopped buying EA games due to DRM....
Comment by cyberspice1 at 12:44pm 16th August 2008
..Proof if any were needed that releasing games without DRM has no negative effect of sales. .. I'm guessing you meant 'with' there. However you are totally wrong. I haven't bought a product because it had DRM when otherwise I would have. That's one lost sale right there= negative impact. I do agree that a good/highly wanted game will sell well irrespective of DRM, but you cannot imply therefore that DRM has no impact. Your logic is flawed /shoo
Comment by titan at 11:52am 16th August 2008
I'm not disputing that. Just pointing out that DRM or not, it makes no difference. If it has DRM it will be cracked within days, so what's the point? The only people who suffer are the paying customers.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:52am 16th August 2008
If game producers really want to stop pirating why dont they employ the pirates so that they can come up with a way to stop piracy? :S
Comment by Wezzz2 at 1:12am 16th August 2008
I have a lot of original games, but I bought them after playing demo... or pirated version. If a game is really good I'd like to show my appreciation. So I guess good demo will help and lack of DRM is also welcome.
Comment by skyblue at 10:28pm 15th August 2008
EA will be launching Crysis Warhead it will be watched VERY closely both EA and Crytek. EA will release this game with DRM and copy protection as usual. Pirate if you dare! Crysis Warhead specs: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=195244
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 8:37pm 15th August 2008
After buying Lego Indiana Jones i discovered it would'nt finish installing because the drm detected that i had a raid setup & decided that i was a pirate, after a couple hours googling the problem i managed to get a dell patch... which fixed the problem. I also have loads of other bought games which wont even run because the drm thinks vista is some kind of pirates paradise. So Yes if i knew a game was DRM free i'd be far more likely to buy it. P.S. I don't even have a sodding dell, i built the pc myself !
Comment by davelister at 8:04pm 15th August 2008
Ok so you go into the newsagents to buy a magazine and have a flick through to see if theres anything good inside, theres not so you dont buy it, if there is you buy it. Now your all gonna say but thats what the demos are for, however in my opinion demos dont give a real depictation of the actual end product. Id rather download a game and play it, then, if i like it go buy it then i dont waste my money on countless games that have amazing demos but the actual game you buy is not all that good. The best parts are in the demos, just like the trailer for a film.
Comment by Wezzz2 at 7:57pm 15th August 2008
Ok so you go into the newsagents to buy a magazine and have a flick through to see if theres anything good inside, theres not so you dont buy it, if there is you buy it. Now your all gonna say but thats what the demos are for, however in my opinion demos dont give a real depictation of the actual end product. Id rather download a game and play it, then, if i like it go buy it then i dont waste my money on countless games that have amazing demos but the actual game you buy is not all that good. The best parts are in the demos, just like the trailer for a film.
Comment by Wezzz2 at 7:57pm 15th August 2008
Let me AGAIN point to the top "2" games on the games chart. They have DRM and copy protection on the disk. They are #1 and #2 in the charts respectively and they're outselling Sins of a Solar Empire despite EA's ridiculous protection on those games that treat ordinary customers like criminals! Proof if any were needed that releasing games with DRM has no negative effect of sales, user experience, or quality of the games. EA will launch Spore and Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning with DRM or some kind of copy protection scheme and they'll do just fine.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 6:43pm 15th August 2008
The only thing foolish is the excuses that are thrown about and how you now change your story. I already said why I posted what I posted. You can either except it or not. If not too bad. This isn't an argument to win or lose, these are opinions. I'm not questioning you, I don't believe you! There is a difference. There is nothing you can say to change my mind either. Because your original statement says where you stand. It is what it is.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 6:12pm 15th August 2008
You're acting a bit foolish, and starting to sound bitter and angst ridden - only I'm sure it's not related to this debate we're all having. Chill out and don't start fights you can't win. If you insist on questioning me then come to my house, we can arm wrestle and afterwards you can scan all my PCs and laptops and media server for torrents. Then I'll give you milk'n'cookies and send you home.
Comment by CSQuake at 2:38pm 15th August 2008
you are one of the resaons why prices remain high for those who actually pay them, and why we have stringent DRM... thanks a lot mate. Not buying a game becuase it's rubbish is lame, if you don't want to play it fair enough don't buy it and waste your money. If you want to play it then pay for it, it's that simple. You say single player games aren't worth buying ... I'm guessing you mean becuase you can just download them for free, or, to put it another way, steal them. By that way of thinking, buying anything is a wastew of money, you could just steal it instead... oh but you might get caught! Either that or you feel the one play of however many hours to complete isn't worth the money, I disagree, how much does that work out per hour... say £2? probably less if you play like me. Well going to the cinema, bowling, renting or buying a video or going to a restaurant, hell even having a McDonalds is more expensive than that (unless you count the time to digest and crap it out again), your arguement is arse (it stinks, is beneath you and frankly has a big crack up the middle), what you really mean is you wont buy something when you can just steal it, well all that makes you is a thief, and not even one with the excuse that they needed to do it to survive. You probably have no idea how much it costs a company to make a game do you? No idea what percentage of the revenue they get from game sales, you just dont really care about the games industry at all... if people like you keep stealing games, defvelopers will stop making them, it's a s simple as that... so thanks for helping wreck one of my enjoyable pastimes...
Comment by NewParadigm at 1:36pm 15th August 2008
Typical answer "If its no good I'm not paying £40 for it". Ok, then dont buy it. But dont play it either. Just because a game is crap doesnt give anyone the right to download it for free. I just dont get that way of thinking. Someone even said particular publishers games are more likely to be ripped more than others due to the 'quality' of the titles. WHAT? Thats not only unsubstantiated but completely illogical. If the game is crap why rip it off? Surely you just wouldn't play it. I cant be bothered to argue today (at home ill :s ) so I'm not going to pick individuals arguments apart but as Warrior said there is no excuse for illegal downloading. If you cant afford it tough. I wish Ferarri's were cheaper and I'm sure more people would buy them if they were but they're not so I cant. Does that mean I can steal one?? (back on topic though, DRM does suck).
Comment by pveater at 12:29pm 15th August 2008
I've been playing FPS games for long time and how many games I’ve brought from stores...just one: Counter Strike Source :D Buying single player games is waste of money, complete rip-offs. I was so tempted to buy COD4 on PC buts it’s like £30 and how long since it’s been out for (f***). Take UT3 Collector’s Edition which cost only like £18 (haha). It just shows when there a decent game out they’ll keep the prices up hoping more peeps would buying but reduces prices on shitti games that no one could care less even. I own two legit games: Counter Strike Source and Guild Wars.
Comment by furyow at 12:24pm 15th August 2008
"Finally, how many times have you had to buy a game again due to the original becoming scratched and unusable? " Erm, never.. I keep the media in the case, rather than lying about on sandpaper ;)
Comment by countstex at 9:49am 15th August 2008
Personally speaking, there's nothing worse than buying a game (your rig meets and beats the required specs) only to find that it won't play due to it not liking certain legit software (virtual drive management software for example). You can't take the game back as you've opened it. That is what really takes the mickey. Demos are there to give you an idea of what the game is going to be like, but far too many (if you are lucky enough to get one for the game) are buggy as heck. Games themselves seem to be getting shorter and easier to complete, but the price still being way higher than you would ever consider paying for the game - leaving you feeling rather ripped off. If it's a budget game, then charge a budget price. Then you have the released game being buggy as heck. The producers release a few patches and then abandon the game to work on the next money spinner. A never ending cycle. I refuse to buy games on the day of release or even shortly after anymore. I'll wait till the game has had its first few major bug fixes before even considering buying. Even then I'll still probably wait till the price drops a bit or it goes on promotion. After taking part in beta testing a couple of well known games for a certain games company I also had my eyes opened as to how some parts of game-play are included over others - who whines the loudest wins. I'm far more selective about which game(s) will be added to my collection (all bought and paid for), but I've still managed to buy the very odd game that is rubbish, which quickly gets shelved and left to gather dust. Finally, how many times have you had to buy a game again due to the original becoming scratched and unusable? It would be nice to be able to make a legit backup of your game to keep the original in perfect condition and allow you to play the game for years to come (as long as your OS will play it that is). The one game I've ever downloaded and tried out saved be £34.99 and making a big mistake. I played the first mission, uninstalled the game and deleted the download as it was utter rubbish (being really polite there!). I downloaded the game as there was no demo for it. Now if there's no demo I won't purchase the game. I'll wait till a mate has bought it and have a go at it on their rig. If it's good/what I expected, then I'll wait till the price drops/goes on promotion and then buy it.
Comment by reme8488 at 9:10am 15th August 2008
For me it's never been the cost of a game that has been the problem. When you comapre the cost/hours enjoyment of any half decent game if far outstrips movies or many other entertainment outlets we have available. If DRM was used purely to ensure games were only used by legitimate owners than I would have no problems with it, but factors like having to find the CD/DVD each time I want to play the game are a real pain, and being as my Fiancee also plays games, we really shouldn't have to buy two copies of a game, just so we both can play it, unless it's a purely multiplayer game, or MMO. This is a trick the software industry is really missing.. the number of multi-player households there are. And I'm not talking about peple still living with their parents, I'm talking about gaming couples which is I believe a far larger community than people realise. I also have to agree on the demo front, many are just not good enough to judge a game from, either woefully short, or don't show off all aspects of the game. This is probably the only reason I would download a game illegally now, to ensure it was a game I will play. As a full time worker my playing hours are far less than they used to be, even if they are more than most of my peers who now have kids of their own. So I really do like to know what a game is like before I go ahead and pay for it. I've used this tactic many times, and can honestly say I have then gone on to buy those games which proved to be worthy.
Comment by countstex at 8:44am 15th August 2008
Let me AGAIN point to Sins of a Solar Empire. No DRM or copy protection on the disk, and it's number 5 in the charts! It's outselling Mass Effect, despite EA's ridiculous protection on that game that treated ordinary customers like criminals! Proof if any were needed that releasing games without DRM has no negative effect of sales.
Comment by cyberspice1 at 8:10am 15th August 2008
I'm glad to hear that a developer is listening to probably what is a majority of game pirates. Personally, I downloaded a copy of BF2 a while back, played it, loved it, then bought it as the real version wasn't riddled with hack bugs turning my game funny colours at points. So maybe my reasons are different - plus when I bought it, it had come down in price too. It's wierd as i used to love Super Nintendo, most of the decent games were only available on grey imports and often (esp for games like Final Fantasy titles which were in huge demand in Japan & the States), the games were £50-£60 - and this is back in the mid-90's! I do hope that people like EA do take similar steps as I'm sure they'll find out it will work in their benefit, and for the benefit of consumers which will mean more sales. I also hope the games industry in general can be a proving ground for film/music companies to follow.
Comment by EdArch at 3:07am 15th August 2008
Maybe there was a misunderstanding. The game was "leaked" and appeared on the internet. It was then "downloaded" 700,000 times. Not individual hardcopies stolen then fleeced in a back alley somewhere. As far as DRM is concerned it doesn't bother me the least bit. I built my PC from scratch, I purchased the game, loaded it, and played it. No problems. "My" user experience hasn't suffered at all. Thanks for caring but it's really not necessary. The three activation limit is pretty standard on software. It's standard on anti-virus and OS software. Any software that comes bundled with the PC has a time limit then you must purchase it if you want to continue using it. Standard stuff. So why are games different? If you just buy the game, load it up and play it you should have no problems. But when you try and do something you shouldn't you'll run into trouble. To get "around" that issue you want the DRM removed. So you can put the game on any PC you want, as many times as you want, thus enabling piracy. Inside jobs ARE the norm. How do you think movies and games hit the street weeks/days before the retail stores get them? Once it hits the internet it's over. Game quality is subjective unless the game is broken (like AoC). So I'm confused about something else. If I don't like a game, I don't want it. I don't want to own it, I don't want to play it, I don't want it on my hard drive, I don't want it at all. But when a pirate "says" he doesn't like a game, he steals it, keeps it, and plays it for hours or days, all the while complaining how bad it sucks! It doesn't make sense. So game quality is not a deterent, it's an excuse. People do this because they can. They just don't want to pay because they don't have to. This is an issue where we'll agree to disagree because everyone who does this has their own reasons. None of which make any sense. http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8797&Itemid=1
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:57pm 14th August 2008
Theres 1 main reason for piracy in my eyes. Cost. Everything is so expensive nowadays, i mean why would you wanna pay £500 for photoshop its not all that good. If manufacturers maybe made the games worth there money maybe more people would buy them. Take CoD 4 for example why would you want to pay £40 for a game that takes a day to complete, whereas games like GTA 4 that (from what i have read) will cost the same as CoD4 however it is a much bigger game that will give weeks if not months of play with always new stuff to do. I payed £40 for CoD 4 when i bought it and i think that it is a very good game however it was so short, like i said i completed it in a day, granted that is constant play but of the 150 gamers i know 3/4 of these spend there days playin games constantly. Sometimes i think to myself why do i spend all of this money on the latest game to come out when i could get it for free by downloading it, the only extra hassle its gonna cause me is i gotta wait for it and probly have to take a few steps to crack it, but who minds that your not paying £40 to play a game that lasts a day. So there ya have it in my eyes its cost.
Comment by Wezzz2 at 11:52pm 14th August 2008
I have no problem writing anything. I didn't put your name behind the quote because I didn't want to look like I was singling "you" out and embarrassing or attacking you. It was the general mindset that pirates have that I was trying to convey. That is why I said "a" thief instead of CSQuake the thief. But now that I have your permission I'll make sure I do so next time. "I don't actually have any game torrents, I was putting muself in the position of someone less fortunate than myself who doesn't feel they can spend their valuable resource on a new game"-CSQuake. REALLY?!! "Now then, if you want to keep "me" happy and away from torrents, here's what you need to do: digital download (Steam only), include a level editor, online play and an achievements system. As for DRM ... charge me a £2 rental and fine, I might download and play a rented game, but don't charge me £15 to "buy" the game and limit me to installing it 3 times ... or whatever incarnation there may be. I just won't buy it. You know it is that simple"-CSQuake Riiiiiiighttt!!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 11:06pm 14th August 2008
sorry i meant to write "Also I would NOT regard that as piracy, that was someone stealing the actual DVDs and then reselling them on the black market."
Comment by jonisaksson at 11:27pm 14th August 2008
Yes inside jobs are of course a big problem though I dont think that is the norm. Also I would regard that as piracy, that was someone stealing the actual DVDs and then reselling them on the black market. Piracy in my mind is when you copy material and then distribute the copies rather than the actual originals. In terms of your comment on DRM, no of course I dont think removing it will stop the piracy but there is a huge issue if the pirate copy is actually more user friendly than the purchased copy. Why should I who has paid £30 for software have less user friendly software then the guy who just downloaded it. So it isnt stopping piracy (clearly) it is just stopping the people who paid for it to have the same user experience. I think the only way they can beat piracy is making sure you get more if you pay for the software then if you dont. Easy access to patches, online gaming etc etc. DRM clearly doesnt stop the pirates so whats the point? Also to completely flip this around. Just because someone has a pirate copy, doesnt mean that they would have purchased the software if the pirates werent there. How many people have got Photoshop installed, but how many of those would spend £500 to buy it if there wasnt any pirates around. The easy access (which is clearly a problem) of pirated software means that people install more than they actually need so I think the software industry grossly overestimate the lost profit. If I copy a CD and give the copy to the friend, that doesnt mean that the music industry has all of the sudden lost £10. They lost the opportunity to sell this guy that album, but they didnt actually loose any money. On a grander scale that will of course have an impact, but to think that every song that was download would other wise been bought is just scaremongering Anyway, that is my 5 pence
Comment by jonisaksson at 11:08pm 14th August 2008
How I look at it, is that it IS a problem. A HUGE problem on the PC. So much so that it has effected PC gaming. The PC is missing games because of this and the market has slid drastically! It's funny to hear PC gamers complaining about the lack of games, slow release dates, and lack of attention the PC is getting and not heed to the reasons why. Many people don't think piracy is a problem despite the evidence to the contrary because they're getting what they want for free, so they don't give a damn. The reason for that is that people look at it from "their" point of view. They don't see the big picture of the grand scale that this stuff takes place and that they're part of it. If you get stung by one honey bee it's no big deal, get stung by the whole hive and it could kill you! Ubisoft just got hit for 700,000 copies of Assassin's Creed six week before launch! Thats not petty theft, thats "Grand theft" (no pun intended)! And it was an inside job! 700,000 copies @ $50 ea? Do the math. You actually "believe" that by removing a "security device" from something and telling the thieves that you did so is going to "deter" theft? Really? Why don't remove the locks from your house and your car, then leave the doors and windows wide open when you leave from now on. Tell every thief you did so and you "trust" them not to steal. No? Why not? Exactly! You'd be sleeping on the floor. Positech needs their heads examined. Their thought process is insane with a heavy dose of ignorance thrown in. I'm sure they're going to borrow money to make their games. I feel sorry for their investors. I'm glad you brought up the music industry. Look at it. You just about HAVE to download now. All the little stores that used to sell music exclusively are gone! Only big chain stores sell music now, and ONLY if they like the music being sold! Walmart is a prime example of this. They won't sell anything with explicit lyrics. So if you like hardcore hip hop you won't be buying it from Walmart! They also wouldn't carry Bully or GTA! Thats censorship as far as I'm concered whether you like the particular game/music or not. Bottom line is that the big game companies won't cave like this, they'll just stop putting games on the system. Many already have, or will do so a year later to eek out a little more coin from a dying franchise and after the console kids had fun with it. Previous PC only developers have now focused on console development before the PC! I'm not saying that developers don't have to improve their products, because alot of PC games are released with bugs and problems (AoC anyone?) but thinking that will stop the stealing is nieve. People steal "crappy" games so why in hell would you think they won't steal a good one?!!
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 9:21pm 14th August 2008
Thanks for plagarising my original post, however I wish you would write your own! I don't actually have any game torrents, I was putting muself in the position of someone less fortunate than myself who doesn't feel they can spend their valuable resource on a new game. Thanks for agreeing with me whole-heartedly ... lol That's not to say I haven't in the past. In fact I forgot to write another reason why someone might illegally download something - a delayed European launch. This happens frequently and it really is annoying knowing that the yanks get everything before us!
Comment by CSQuake at 9:06pm 14th August 2008
You are of course right that it is theft. But they way you look at it doesnt solve the problem. Also I would say the vast majority of computer users have some software or music that they didnt purchase (no I am not talking freeware). So why is that? Why is it that the public feel it isnt theft? The software and music industry has tried the hardline for the last 20 years, and if anything has that caused more piracy. So I think this developer is looking at it in absolutly the right way. You have to make sure that the purchased version is at least as good as the pirated version. (remove DRM shite and the like) I used to pride myself, as a teenager, that none of my software were legitimate. Childish? Yes, but these days I can afford my the games I want to play, so I purchase every single one of them. Frankly spending 20-30 quid every 2-3 months for hours and hours of fun doesnt seem like very much. Far better value than going to the cinema which only last 2-3 hours. I think proper demo's can be the key though to get people to buy. It will of course also mean that if they release a crap game....
Comment by jonisaksson at 8:22pm 14th August 2008
This developer is a fool and will be rewared with theft. A fool and his money will soon be parted. Not paying for something is stealing and any reason for it is an excuse. Price? Excuse. PC games are dirt cheap, you can even find the one you want in a bargin bin if you wait 30 days after launch! If you can afford to spend $200, $300, $400 on video cards, ram, chips, ect then you can afford a game! DRM? Excuse. This is the the typical response from a pirate, "if you want to keep "me" happy and away from torrents, here's what you need to do: digital download (Steam only), include a level editor, online play and an achievements system. As for DRM ... charge me a £2 rental and fine, I might download and play a rented game, but don't charge me £15 to "buy" the game and limit me to installing it 3 times ... or whatever incarnation there may be. I just won't buy it. You know it is that simple". The only thing missing here is the ransom demand. Appeasment NEVER works. It doesn't with kidnappers, bullies, abusers, rapists, or terrorists. It won't work with thieves either.
Comment by Warrior24_7 at 7:05pm 14th August 2008
there is a thing just or kinda like that voulcher yolk you were on about. its called "3v". ya sign up online, they send you out a creditcard LIKE card with that you use in any normal shop by paying cash and you get a "phone credit" like piece of paper with temporary credit card details which you can use as a visa online for the amount of cash you payed in the shop. check it out www.3v.ie
Comment by snake668 at 7:03pm 14th August 2008
there is a thing just or kinda like that voulcher yolk you were on about. its called "3v". ya sign up online, they send you out a creditcard LIKE card with that you use in any normal shop by paying cash and you get a "phone credit" like piece of paper with temporary credit card details which you can use as a visa online for the amount of cash you payed in the shop. check it out www.3v.ie
Comment by snake668 at 7:03pm 14th August 2008
I was just making and Example, i have no idea how much the direct cost (i.e the cost of producing 1 unit) are and no idea how much the development costs of any game are but buying through Etailers or online option like steam cuts down that cost by taking out the retailers margin(i.e rent desplay costs etc), As per my other idea we need a way to make it accessible to every1 i.e vouchers like with ITUNES that any1 can buy then use to download games at a much reduced price than buying them from a retailer PS after the development costs have been covered the cost of the game can be dropped and still add to profit just as long as its higher than the direct cost i.e (budget games)
Comment by ajhwork at 4:41pm 14th August 2008
Completely agree. I'm waiting for a release of it without DRM
Comment by IanYates at 1:48pm 14th August 2008
It's excellent when a dev actually does some research instead of having a marketing exec blame piracy for everything. On the other hand, Crysis Warhead can be pre-ordered, today, at Play.com, for FIFTEEN POUNDS. So up to £25 less than if it had been a brand new console game. You think anyone who pirated the first game under the excuse of price is going to buy the next one, even for a bargain price? I personally doubt it. Even though it doesn't look like DRM-free games are pirated to a greater degree, let's see just how many pirates pony up for Kudos 2 after the dev has given half of it away in a demo and not protected it.
Comment by KHenry_07 at 3:16pm 14th August 2008
I think the way to crack pirating could indeed lie with a successful demo solution. The issue is usually that the demo is available very close to the launch. I would be in favour of a fully fledged Gold demo "Release" to whet the appetite of the consumer, then delay the official release by a month or so. Pirates could not copy the retail version and if the demo is good, invloved and gives the correct impression of what the conssumer is likely to get, it will sell itself. Game companies moan about piracy but in truth, as a guestimate, 70% of games released are simply not worth our hard earned cash.
Comment by Bradshort at 3:28pm 14th August 2008
I think the way to crack pirating could indeed lie with a successful demo solution. The issue is usually that the demo is available very close to the launch. I would be in favour of a fully fledged Gold demo "Release" to whet the appetite of the consumer, then delay the official release by a month or so. Pirates could not copy the retail version and if the demo is good, invloved and gives the correct impression of what the conssumer is likely to get, it will sell itself. Game companies moan about piracy but in truth, as a guestimate, 70% of games released are simply not worth our hard earned cash.
Comment by Bradshort at 3:28pm 14th August 2008
COD4 sold 7 mil units at Jan 08, 6 months later it has sold a total of 10 mil units. If we use Gameplays online box price of £29.99, then say £15 is production costs ... x sold units = £150 million quid. I never knew so much cash was spent on COD4 !!! (using your maths of course). As for gifting games to friends etc, this has been available on Steam for ages.
Comment by CSQuake at 2:48pm 14th August 2008
if we're treatedlike criminal, then eventually we'll become criminals... and I personally dont buy games from steam because I've heard that If you purchase a game on steam, you have to be online to play it...which would be annoying if I decided to move home (and had to wait 6 months for Virgin to install