World of Goo piracy rate at 90%

You're very close, I get the chance to buy games at cost price (as in dev + production) so know the difference between shelf price and production cost. For some it's very small. The cost of the games when they filter through to shops is mostly at least 2 or 3 middle man fees in there, such as the main distributor, then a smaller one etc. There isn't a huge amount of profit per game sold for the games company.

Comment by finlay666uk at 12:07am 18th November 2008

"Not as long as they can produce a DVD with box and manual for less than a £1 and sell for nearer £40"...... what about paying the salaries of the staff, the R&D, the investment for future titles and everything else you have to pay out to run a business. If you look at a typical £25-£30 game on the PC and see how much the developers get per copy you might be suprised.

Comment by pveater at 3:54pm 17th November 2008

"I bet most of those who download would rarely go out and CHOOSE that particular title off the shelf because it isnt worth it"...... thats what the demo is for isnt it?!!

Comment by pveater at 3:42pm 17th November 2008

you need to also take into account the amount of people who are downloading pirated games with P2P programs that are ONLY downloading that particular game to look at it BECAUSE it doesnt cost anything. The producers can claim they lost a "sale" but in truth I bet most of those who download would rarely go out and CHOOSE that particular title off the shelf because it isnt worth it. Well written games become successfull and earn profit on merit. Write a cracking game and you will earn HUGE profits and alternatively if you write shite you lose money. Most failed games arent failed through piracy but because they are CRAP and no one buys them.Piracy might exaserbate the result but I cant see how it can cause it. Take a look at an average monthly games mag and see how many titles score less than 50%. Do you go out and buy a game you know to be bugged or useless? I dont, I wait and buy only ones I know are well recieved. Also consider these so called hard done by developers etc!..Look at the film industry, millions of pirate films yet do you see them stop making films anytime soon? of course not, they still earn fortunes and yet when they make a stinker of a film do they WARN us not to buy? no they tell you its the comedy blockbuster of the year and try to trick you into buying their crap film. I have bought hundreds of really bad games and movies that I feel werent worth the money yet no one protects my cash and refunds me, they smile and feed us the next lie. I dont mind paying for the stuff I use but Im getting pretty fed up hearing about how everythings being ruined by pirates. If it were true, as in the games industry is imminently due to collapse due to piracy it wouldnt be the fastest growing industry of all time with higher profits than hollywood would it? The day I see a GOOD game producer decide to give up altogether and start selling toys I might change my mind but until then all I see is the usual process of business. You rise and fall on your product. Produce crap and you dont deserve profit and from where im sitting the problem with the games industry isnt piracy its a general lack of innovation and too many corperate companies like EA trying to tell us its not their crappy 100th reincarnation of fifa thats boring and therefore not selling as well, but the pirates to blame for stealing it that has led to the CEO not getting his $100K bonus this year. screw em they dont care about you and never will unless theres profit to be made. Dont be too quick to believe all the crap about "no more games" because of the dastardly pirates. Not as long as they can produce a DVD with box and manual for less than a £1 and sell for nearer £40 you will see endless lines of developers and producers trying to cash in, and believe you, me, they wont care HOW they get your money as long as they get it. The problem is they cant factor in the "success" element of their product as its as intangible as our "tastes" and this is what makes them cry "pirates are ruining everything" when their tired rehashed game fails to capture popular acclaim.

Comment by hazed100 at 1:08pm 17th November 2008

I think that's a pretty misleading subtitle considering that the article goes on to state that the piracy rates for DRM'd and DRM-free games is about the same. Maybe tone down the sensationalist tag line?

Comment by evanjdooner at 12:26pm 17th November 2008

I guess, now I have to buy twenty copies of this game so that in future we don't end up living in an opressive EA DRM Securom world. Maybe game developers should take profits from the hardware industry, if it wasn't for software, why would people bother with it. Most PC owners need to spend around £5000 a year to keep their PC bang up to date. It seems a lot for something you can't do anything with.

Comment by samcboy at 12:49am 17th November 2008

I think the reason this game has a high piracy factor would be the fact its pretty small .. an 80mb executable file ... so a lot of people probably downloaded it to see what it was ... then actually liked it... I have it on the virtual console of my wii and its pretty decent although i did get bored after about 15 mins. On another point... if the drm and non drm versions have similar piracy figures then whats the point of DRM ... doesnt seem to make any difference either way !! ...only people effected by the drm are the loyal customers who have forked out their cash and have a limit of installing x times ... or having to authenticate their cd key x amount of times ... whereas the good old pirate has the freedom to do with the game whatever they please.... if people are going to pirate games then applying drm isnt going to stop them they like the fact that your getting a game for free thats my thoughts anyway ...

Comment by akoli at 12:08am 17th November 2008

Why should I blame the pirates? I like the pirates. Means when I buy a game, I can install a clean copy without DRM. I bought the damn game, I didn't rent it.

Comment by woe2you at 10:31am 16th November 2008

Wouldn't be cool if you know someone who pirate games and you had the right to call the police on them and if they get arrested, you get money. Now you could use that money to buy games!

Comment by Anonymous at 4:48am 16th November 2008

90% ! is that really how pc gamers treat those making their games... no wodner people are beginning to think seriously about whether to make pc games or not. Talk about biting the hand that feeds! Pirates = idiots

Comment by NewParadigm at 3:15am 16th November 2008

...that people like Nick, who had clearly never even heard of World of Goo before reading this article, let alone played it, still feel they must weigh in with their 'opinion' that it's the games fault for being a 'retro' 'clone' and for having too higher selling price. Those 'opinions' are of course worthless as they're based on nothing, but it does show that software theives feel even £15 games are too expensive to buy - so what hope have the big new titles got when priced at £30 or £40? One has to wonder how they can afford the reasonably powerful PCs required to run the newest games, if £15 is more they can afford. Would they fill their car with petrol, and just drive away? Would they drive to HMV and pocket some new games? No of course not - and not because they think it's wrong, oh no, it's because they're much, much, (much multiplied many times!) more likely to get caught. As for "people have to gain trust with developers before giving them their hard earned cash" - I bet you it's only a tiny, tiny percentage of people that know/care what publisher made the game they just bought. It's not as if you read awesome reviews for a game, and are about to buy it when you notice it's made by the same dev. that made something else you didn't like. I assume it's the same when it comes to choosing which games to steal as well.

Comment by dan_tx2 at 9:12pm 15th November 2008

I think to be honest if they are going to claim a stat like that they need to show their working out. It sounds spectacularly unscientific to me. I mean if a few people with dynamic IPs submit lots of scores, which is perfectly possible, then the number is going to be all over the shop because, by their method of testing, they will never have shown up on their list. With any sort of statistic just vaguely pulled out of the air with no concrete numbers to back it up it's basically worthless.

Comment by Grotmonkey at 9:10pm 15th November 2008

I'm sure there's a free flash game that's been around for a while that's very similar?

Comment by steeli at 9:02pm 15th November 2008

I'm not blaming DRM for anything. It has never harmed me ot my PC in any way other than a minor inconveinience or two. I am also totally anti-piracy. I buy all my games on both the PC and 360. The point I am making is that DRM does not stop piracy for the most part. Its not the answer to the problem.

Comment by pveater at 1:53pm 15th November 2008

This isn't about DRM, it's about "piracy"!! It's about "stealing"! DRM is a result of rampant piracy not the other way around. As far as it not stopping piracy is a moot point and actually makes the point of the PC being saturated by pirates and calls into question it's viability!! Something other PC game developers have complained about in the past! I'm glad this company put this out, it completely destroys any argument put forth by thieves. This 90% statistic is pretty much standard across the board with the PC not just this game and proves that most PC gamers are determined to steal no matter what and will go to any length not to pay for a game! So listening to a pirate is foolhardy! Why would anybody listen to a thief? As they say there is no honor among thieves! You say DRM has never stopped your Nero from working but there is another guy on a different post telling me something totally different about his Nero! So it seems everybody is blaming DRM for all things wrong with the PC, but nobody is blaming the pirates.

Comment by Warrior24_7 at 6:32am 15th November 2008

World of Goo was first brought to my attention on Steam, where the demo was offered. Unfortunately clicking on the "get the full version" link in the demo prompts a message saying "not available in your territory". Cheers for that 2D Boy. Why dangle the carrot if you are just going to take it away again. Don't put games on Steam if you are not going to allow everyone to buy it. The ones who can't will end up pirating it. Maybe that's the intention - dangle the carrot then follow it up with a £600 letter from Davenport Lyons. Me, I'm leaving it alone.

Comment by gavomatic57 at 9:59pm 14th November 2008

It is sad so many people pirate games, c'mon people it is not as if they cost that much these days. I know a friend who does pirate a game, and if he likes it he buys it, fair enough... not my things but hey, at least he then supports the game. I know plenty of people who pirate and have plenty of money, it's sad and killing PC gaming

Comment by gavin_maw at 9:52pm 14th November 2008

i brought it and have played it on 3 different machines and 3 different connections on each. i also have dynamic addresses on each connection. go figure.

Comment by TBallS at 8:05pm 14th November 2008

I thought the demo also allowed you to submit your scores. Hence a lot of the reported IP addresses might come from the demo and not from pirates. Or am I missing something?

Comment by larsschmid at 7:59pm 14th November 2008

Nick, you've obviously never played the game. It is not at all a Lemmings clone. "-esque" does not mean "-clone". And by the way, I bought the game, although I work at one of the largest Nintendo piracy websites today. It's a fantastic experience!

Comment by Gz_sinkheade9852 at 6:59pm 14th November 2008

It's funny, a pirate will always find an excuse, be it cost, drm or whatever. They are thieves, they lack honesty in their life. If it's $1 they thieve. Yet if someone thieves of them they will cry and moan. Would you like it if you made something and sold it in a shop only to find out 90% of people are getting your hard work for free. Like i say, scum, eventually it catches up with them in their life in one form or another. They are losers in life and their life is destined to be a sess pool of crap.

Comment by Dambuster at 6:44pm 14th November 2008

The link above talks about: "Reflexive's director of marketing Russell Carroll (Wik, Ricochet) reveals the 92% piracy rate for one of his company's games, and what worked (and didn't work) when they tried to fix it.]." Their research shows that 1 pirate copy of their games does not = 1 lost sale: "As we believe that we are decreasing the number of pirates downloading the game with our DRM fixes, combining the increased sales number together with the decreased downloads, we find 1 additional sale for every 1,000 less pirated downloads. Put another way, for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale. Though many of the pirates may be simply shifting to another source of games for their illegal activities, the number is nonetheless striking and poignant. The sales to download ratio found on Reflexive implies that a pirated copy is more similar to the loss of a download (a poorly converting one!) than the loss of a sale. Though that doesn’t make a 92% piracy rate of one of our banner products any less distressing, knowing that eliminating 50,000 pirated copies might only produce 50 additional legal copies does help put things in perspective." If you look now at the World Of Goo piracy rate of 90 percent, and imagine the same 1,000 to 1 sales conversion rate, then you will realize the following: If they had 1,111 total copies of World Of Goo on the market, and 90 percent (1,000 copies) were pirate versions; if they completely got rid of that 90 percent, they would ONLY generate 1 single extra sale. So the total sales would be 112 legit copies instead of 111 copies. In fact, according to 2D Boy's own research, they had 2 percent less piracy with the DRM-free game than their DRM games. So looking at the other statistic, if 2D Boy managed to completely eliminate piracy, then they might only make 1 extra sale per 1,000 pirate copies. So that proves that software games companies are NOWHERE NEAR affected financially by piracy as they make you believe. In fact, if they got rid of it completely, they would hardly notice any difference in their profits. By the way, I don't use pirate versions of games or condone it. I hate piracy of PC games. I am just keeping this in perspective. Most people who read the above report are SHOCKED TO DEATH due to the fact that they automatically believe that each pirate copy of a game equals a lost sale to the developer, which is complete nonsense.

Comment by smith at 5:47pm 14th November 2008

Their statistics do not show an increase in piracy when they shipped a game title without DRM. Actually, they experienced 2 percent less piracy. How many times do people have to explain to games companies that DRM only inconveniences the law abiding customer. DRM has NEVER stopped piracy. On top of that, it also costs the games company more money to buy and include DRM such as SecuRom in a game title. So they go through all the trouble and expense of having DRM, then the game STILL appears on Torrent sites on the day of release. Plus they have their angry loyal customers with a few DRM related complaints to deal with as well. Plus the risk of lawsuits. What's the point of all this. Another thing I want to add is: the 90 percent of pirate copies in the market DOES NOT PROVE that those 90 percent of gamers with the pirate versions would have purchased the game if the DRM wasn't cracked. Each pirate copy DOES NOT equal 1 lost sale. If anything, they can actually take advantage of those pirate copies as extra publicity and mass awareness of their game. At the same time as being confident that their own research has just PROVEN that if they release a DRM-free game, then they won't get an increase in piracy figures, but a 2 percent REDUCTION in piracy.

Comment by smith at 4:29pm 14th November 2008

its like this... the world is ruled by the bigger number... voting, financial, wars. all and everything follows that rule. so look at the bigger number here 90%, you can argue the reasons for how that number would be higher or lower, but it wont matter a f**k. its still over 50% making it the bigger number. so it has been said before .. pc gaming is f**ked. its just a matter of time now cos nobody will take a 90% paycut for doing the same job. would you. bet not

Comment by snake668 at 4:20pm 14th November 2008

"but people have to gain trust with developers before giving them their hard earned cash!" I hate this excuse. I dont know why PC gamers think they have the god given right to do this. Try a demo, read a review, whatever. Piracy is piracy. Its not try before you buy.

Comment by pveater at 3:48pm 14th November 2008

Yes piracy is rampant and its only hurting the gaming community more and more. We see devs moving to console only releases and wonder why! Ok so console games get pirated too but there's still obviously money to be made in this sector. But my argument is simply this. DRM does not stop piracy. Its never stopped my Nero from working or blew up my gfx card fan (!!) but it does place restriction on me and software on my PC I'd rather not have. Its a shame whats happening to the PC gaming market but DRM is not the answer.

Comment by pveater at 3:48pm 14th November 2008

I only read the first few paragraphs and stopped. These people have no idea what they're up against. Piracy on the PC is rampant and listening to pirates is stupid. It's articles like these that absolutely debunk anything a pirate has to say. I can't wait to here the littany of excuse now. Bottom line is that pirates are thieves, and thieves DON'T WANT TO PAY!! GET IT NOW 2D BOY?!!

Comment by Warrior24_7 at 3:33pm 14th November 2008

OK, OK, OK... calm down dear, its only a comment...

Comment by NikoBellic at 3:35pm 14th November 2008

Its 15 quid its not exactly cheap is it thats nearly the price of some top titles (e.g. orange box i picked up for 20 quid). So i think its down to simple the company being too greedy. They are a new company so nobody really knows if they games are even worth buying. The price is too high for a retro title 5 to 10 quid at max. I can gurantee the reason it was so pirated was cause who wants to pay that much for a title which might only be played once. Now if the had reduced the price to 10 dollars u can bet alot more and probably more than double would buy as 10 dollars is pretty much throw away money. Infact i wouldnt have been surprised is that one guy bought it then gave it to all his friends also cause whos going to spend 20 dollars on a lemmings cloan. Personnally i think indie games should make sure that they keep there pries low so they dont compete with high end titles. Maybe raise the prices once u have a name for urself but until drop ur price otherwise the piracy will continue until u put the price into the magic boundry.

Comment by nick101 at 1:48pm 14th November 2008

Thats an atrocious way of finding the rate of piracy. The number of static I.P. addresses is tiny, the vast majority change whenever the connection is remade, even cable connections etc. I access a TS server that has an IP that only changes when the router is rebooted. Should be static, yet its still changed 4 or 5 times in the last month due to power cuts, changing settings etc. That would mean a 80% rate of piracy right there! Oh noes!

Comment by NotFred at 3:11pm 14th November 2008

Niko: STFU, the game is available as a FREE demo to try to see if you like it, no need to steal on a 'try before you buy' system. Just search "World of Goo demo" TBH I don't blame developers putting DRM into titles, especially when stuff like this happens. All the little pirates complaining about DRM as a way to validate their actions then a game that is DRM free comes out....and they steal it. The game is $20 not £20, it's quite cheap considering the length of it and how good it is. People complain about the state of PC gaming.... I worry what piracy is doing to the industry, I doubt PCs will continue to be developed for soon except for DRM filled games.

Comment by finlay666uk at 3:14pm 14th November 2008

Like Nick101 says, it is too expensive for an indie game.

Comment by CSQuake at 2:47pm 14th November 2008

Its 15 quid its not exactly cheap is it thats nearly the price of some top titles (e.g. orange box i picked up for 20 quid). So i think its down to simple the company being too greedy. They are a new company so nobody really knows if they games are even worth buying. The price is too high for a retro title 5 to 10 quid at max. I can gurantee the reason it was so pirated was cause who wants to pay that much for a title which might only be played once. Now if the had reduced the price to 10 dollars u can bet alot more and probably more than double would buy as 10 dollars is pretty much throw away money. Infact i wouldnt have been surprised is that one guy bought it then gave it to all his friends also cause whos going to spend 20 dollars on a lemmings cloan. Personnally i think indie games should make sure that they keep there pries low so they dont compete with high end titles. Maybe raise the prices once u have a name for urself but until drop ur price otherwise the piracy will continue until u put the price into the magic boundry.

Comment by nick101 at 1:48pm 14th November 2008

"MOST" doesn't mean all, I buy all my games, most via Steam. I've bought a number of independant games too. Makes me angry when I read articles like that.

Comment by Dambuster at 1:33pm 14th November 2008

''as well as changing dynamic IP addresses.'' Thats the majority of all UK broadband ISP's giving a different IP address everytime to modem or router is switched off/restarted. So that figure is a bit high. I think that avid PC gamers who play games online will buy a copy, whereas those who are just for cheap thrills till the next big title will download for the single player aspect. A true PC gamer is all about the multiplayer tbh.

Comment by Lightning_Pete at 1:15pm 14th November 2008

they haven't got a reputation yet... people want to know if their games are worth the money, if their game turns out to be good (I aint tried it yet) then people will most likely buy into their next game!, but people have to gain trust with developers before giving them their hard earned cash!.

Comment by NikoBellic at 1:15pm 14th November 2008

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